CCO
Now that you have read the original version of “Little Snow White,” along with the poem “Snow White” by Anne Sexton, let’s discuss your own personal response to the story. All text-based responses are valid. This disqualifies comments that the story is just a simple tale for children that should not be overanalyzed.
What are possible connections between this fairytale, the poem, and last week’s story “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” What specific observations in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story strike you as interesting or insightful and relevant to the works of literature?
Please be sure to include your section number at the end of your response. There are 3 sections of students in our big discussion group!
Also, address comments to others by name so we can all follow along.
97 thoughts on “Week 14 Discussion”
Analyzing Anne Sexton’s poetic retelling of “Snow White,” critic Ann Garbett points to Snow White’s susceptibility for the “’simple passion’ of beauty and the poison of pride that may accompany it” as a way to suggest that her “purity is mostly appearance” (Garbett). With this in mind, there’s much in Bruno Bettelheim’s psychologically driven understanding of the Brothers’ Grimm telling of “Snow White” that directly implicates the characters and events within last week’s “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”
To start, Bettelheim’s central premise of “Snow White” rests on the restraint of “uncontrolled passion,” lest “it will become one’s undoing” (Bettelheim 214). We, as humans, understand that with passion, we ourselves become vulnerable to our own (perhaps unreasonable) temptations – and how many examples of temptation (“poison apples”) can one offer up in relation to a society like ours, which has an unquestionable lean and bend to beauty and perfection? (Answer: a lot). Bettelheim acknowledges this sense of humanity within “Snow White”, claiming that “Snow White’s inability to resist temptation makes her all the more human and attractive” (Bettelheim 209). At the very least (and an answer that won’t elicit an essay out of me), we can find this as one of the primary connections between this week’s “Snow White” and last week’s “Where Are You Going”: the main protagonists in both sets of stories become, as Bettelheim writes, “expelled…from the original paradise of infancy” and thus suffer a fate similar to “the ancient theme of Narcissus, who loved only himself” to the point that “he became swallowed up by his self-love” (Bettelheim 202, 214).
Relevant to all three works, Bettelheim notes that the reader unconsciously develops awareness of Snow White’s humanity (and by extension, Connie’s humanity). Much like these characters, we also “grow up” in the manner Bettelheim describes; indeed, it is only human to inevitably “vacillate between being overcome by the turmoil” of “the red chaos of unbridled emotions” and “the white purity of our conscience” (Bettelheim 214). As a human myself, I feel the implications Bettelheim makes to these characters deeply; my own sense of development and experience has very much been an entanglement between these two juxtaposed forces.
– Section 0503
David, thank you for starting off the conversation again and for these good insights, which are well-focused on the development of the mature ability to master desire and temptation. I feel that it would be a good addition to my little lecture about “Little Snow White” as a coming-of-age story. One of the hallmarks of maturity is the ability to at least battle with the forces of conscience and temptation, as you mention in your own experience as one of those pesky human beings. Readers often wonder why the wicked queen is forced to dance in burning shoes at the end of the story, and I think this torture reflects a twitching, red-hot punishment for those who cannot learn to temper desire. As Bettleheim notes, the failure by children to overcome temptation is often forgiven after one or two events. It is reassuring to children—and adults—that we can make mistakes and still be redeemed. Snow White is given that chance, but unfortunately, Connie does not get to lie in a glass coffin until enlightenment arrives.
Prof – thank you for your comments. One point that I think deserves some additional discussion is in relation to the “burning shoes” as a “punishment for those who cannot learn to temper desire”. As I reflected on your response, I began to think of desire as a “burning” feeling in itself – in other words, the “burning” comes as an extension of how desire exists in humans, not just as a consequence of harboring desire. Even in “good” desires – namely, those that are not of the sort that seek to kill a child out of jealousy – I know from my own experience that all that you describe – the “twitching”, the feeling of “red-hot”, the “burning” – exists in those as well. For example, I can personally attest to feeling “burns” from desire when I see that I get an A on an essay or exam – a fire so to speak that lights from an acknowledgment of my hard work . I wonder, given the inherent flaws ingrained in humanity, if the “burning shoes” are that which have always been strapped to our feet – and that it’s just a matter of how “human” we in effect allow ourselves to feel and become at particular moments in time.
Hello David. Your views on the text was a very fascinating read as you have many valid points and your usage of quotes to validate these points goes to show how invested in the story you were. One aspect of your writing that I wanted to touch upon was your comparison to “Where Are You Going” as you state that that text along with the two readings delve into “growing up”. I found this to be true as the coming of age theme is prevalent and relevant in all three works, however they are done in both different and similar ways.
Hi David Flick, Your take on these stories are very interesting you made some good point and comparisons. I never read the original story of “Little Snow White” but after reading it I can see a comparison to “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Connie and Snow White were rob of their innocence. Snow White’s Step-mother tried very hard to end her life and Arnold Friend did likewise to end Connie’s.
I really enjoyed the readings this week, as a huge fan of fairy tales and someone who works with children I found it especially enlightening.
As Bettelheim writes “the story deals essentially with the oedipal conflicts between mother and daughter” The strained mother/daughter relationships between Snow White and the queen in the “Little Snow White” and and Connie and her mother in Joyce Carole Oates “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been” are both apparent. While Connie is older and intrigued by attention male attention from her peers, the queen feels Snow White to be a threat to her beauty, believing if Snow White surpasses her in beauty perhaps her father will favor his child and that male attention moving forward will shift from herself to Snow White. I would also venture that to both Connie and to Snow White the male gaze is something that they are on the outskirts of becoming aware of. Even in Snow White the dwarfs comment on her beauty, which makes me wonder, if the story did not revolve so much around physical beauty, were Snow White not beautiful, would they have let her stay? Although, if she were not beautiful, she would likely have enjoyed life in the castle with her father and stepmother until something else in her being became threatening to the queen.
There are stark resemblances between Arnold Friend and the Queen. Neither can enter the dwelling of their intended target without an invitation and they both don disguises to mislead Connie and Snow White. Both the Queen and Arnold Friend use several similar tactics, appealing to the vanity of both girls through compliments and reasoning. Both Snow White and Connie are unsure of coming to the door and feel there is something off, but continue to engage, likely as a result of poor and uninvolved parenting as much as their naive natures. There are also many resemblances between Connie and Snow White, the archetypes of innocent young girls on the verge of womanhood. For Snow White, even though she is so young, she attracts male desire in the prince and moves forward on the path to womanhood as a betrothed. Which I suppose was not uncommon.
As a personal response, there were so many things that surprised me about a tale that I have heard, told, and read so many times! I was so surprised in the “Little Snow White” to hear that Snow White was only 7 when the mirror declared her more beautiful than the queen. I had never read a version with her being so young when cast into the forest. Nor of her being so young when the prince comes by and sees her in apparent death and says he must take her to his palace- which has always struck me as odd! I was also surprised that in Ann Sexton’s story that the queen is made to wear red hot shoes and dance until she is dead! I must say that I like this version more than the queen just vanishing into oblivion after trying multiple times to kill Snow White. I think this is a story addition I will add in some of my tellings. Children are surprisingly open and dark and have lots of questions and also enjoy cause and effect in stories. The last thing that I had never thought of before- while it was women’s role at the time to marry and bear children, the QUEEN is sitting by an open window in the middle of winter while mending her husband’s clothes! Certainly there are warmer places to sit and there are others that specialize in mending! But it does portray her as kind, thoughtful, and maternal.
Ashley
Section 0504
Hi Lauren! – like a tasty lasagna, your response this week is wonderfully layered. As Prof. Conway pointed out, there’s so much in your post worth responding to and since I know I’ll be unable to say everything I’d like to, I want to say first that this was such a pleasure to read and dive into.
I got a lot out of your analysis on Arnold Friend and the Queen in particular – especially your first point, that “neither can enter the dwelling of their intended target without an invitation.” It got me thinking that perhaps another way to view “dwelling” is in relation to one’s internal state – that is, a kind of “house” that stores our memories and experiences, and goes as far as how we protect ourselves from that which is outside of us, including other people. Using “dwelling” in this way I believe strengthens the argument that Connie and Snow White’s youth, vanity, and naivety (in general, the archetype of young female innocence that you mention) causes them to tragically submit to their temptations – if only in part because they don’t quite have the internal structure that adults are more likely to have.
I agree that “poor and uninvolved parenting” can certainly contribute to a child’s prolonged lack of know-how but more than this, I appreciate your use of “as much as” in attempting to give equal weight to the girls’ own “naive natures” as cause for “[continuing] to engage” with certain people, even if they “feel there is something off.” From a sociological perspective, parents are arguably the most significant “agents of socialization,” yet we also know from our own experiences that growing up in that hazy adolescent period of our lives wasn’t always aimed at receiving the approval of our parents. Like some unconscious trial and error scheme, youth may be curious about their outside world, but their vulnerability exists because of a lack of internal grounding that we all eventually adopt once we gradually acquire more life experience, causing some to abide by their passions, even if they can’t explain why.
Hey Lauren!
I really enjoyed reading your post and the points to emphasized. You wrote about many comparisons that came to my mind as well. For example the fact that Snow White was only seven years old. I liked the analyzation of the Queen sitting by an open window in the middle of winter. – Indeed you expressed her maternal qualities but perhaps her siting by the cold represents who she really is – an evil “cold” Queen. That you for you post, I think you should change the ending as well when you teach children as it is better in my opinion 🙂
Happy Thanksgiving !
David
Analyzing these pieces of literary works, possible connections I see from the poem Snow White by Anne Sexton and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyces Carol Oates is that both characters, snow white and connie were kind of scared to come to the door. Moving forward, Snow White and Connie can also be connected because they were both young girls that did not know what they wanted for sure for themselves. Young people at their can think they are ready for real life/ world and that they know everything they need to know however in real life they are not. It can also be connected because in both stories Arnold Friend and the Queen were both trying to do something bad to Snow White and Connie.Since Snow White and Connie were both very young, they did not have much knowledge about everything and that’s what made them both kind of like suffer. Everything that happened to both of them was cause by their innocence, they were both very naive and this is how I think this pieces of literature can be connected.
Overall I have to say that I enjoyed reading snow white once again in a long time. It brought a lot of memories from when I was a child and used to watch the movie all the tile and was my favorite. These stories are really cute to read out loud to an audience full of kids.
sec 0503
Jeidy, you’ve drawn some very good comparisons between “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going?” in terms of both plot and character. Do you have any response regarding the Bettleheim piece and how some of his ideas fit in with your own? I agree that “Little Snow White” can be read to children, for all the reasons Bettleheim puts forth in his chapter; however, “cute” is not a word that comes to mind when thinking of this story by the Brothers Grimm. Remember we’re not discussing the Disney version here.
Hi Jeidy, I definitely agree. Snow white and Connie but suffered from something similar which was growing into themselves before knowing who they really were. I think a part of that stems from responsibility. Them talking full control over what they wanted and figuring out what was best for them. It’s fascinating how we all watched the movie Snow White when we were little and only saw the movie for what it was and not the hidden messages. Thank you for sharing this.
Hello Jeidy,
The two lectures are different from each other but by, analyzing we can find some connection between them. Door and house are key words in these lectures because they are protected in the house but once they open and pass the door the aggressor caught up with the victim When you mention you girls that did not know what they wanted for sure for themselves I define this as innocent girls. These innocent girls are manipulated by people older than them. The key point in these lectures is also that the aggressors attack the victim when they are alone.
As you say these are great movies for kids to teach them know to protect from others.
section 0504
My personal interpret of “Little Snow White” is that vanity is pain. The Queen’s biggest desire is to become the “fairest of them all” which eventually turned her evil and unhappy with herself. When jealousy or envy eats at you, you become someone who is filled with hate and darkness. I think the moral lesson of this story is revolved around the Queen but in the poem however, it critics the value of beauty.
“Beauty is a simple passion,
but, oh my friends, in the end
you will dance the fire dance in iron shoes.”
The poem claims that people who value and want beauty will eventually find problems for themselves.
In Bettleheim’s analysis, he writes:
“Untrammeled sexual jealousy, which tries to ruin others, destroys itself—as symbolized not only by the fiery red shoes but by death from dancing in them. Symbolically, the story tells that uncontrolled passion must be restrained or it will become one’s undoing. Only the death of the jealous queen (the elimination of all outer and inner turbulence) can make for a happy world.”
I agree with Bettleheim’s statement. it is because of the Queen’s untamed jealousy has brought her to her death. The story teaches us that we need to be happy with ourselves in order to live a happy life.
The evil Queen appearing in front of Snow White in different disguises is very much similar to Arnold appearing before Connie. Arnold and the Queen hides behind a evil mask that neither Snow White or Connie can figure out. Both the Queen and Arnold are manipulators with deceptive appearances.
Section 0503
Angela, thank you for the very thoughtful comments and especially for very relevant quote from the Bettleheim piece, as well as the quote from the Sexton poem, all pointing to the dangerous aspects of untamed jealousy.
Hi Angela,
It is interesting that both these stories have a great deal of focus on beauty and outward appearance, while both characters are manipulated by outward appearance. It would seem a lesson that their boon is what they covet.
It is already a joy to read stories from the past, but even more so a joy, to hear it analyzed in a way I have never thought of. It shocks me how as we mature and experience life as adults, we read into stories differently and perhaps analyze them from a different perspective.
Snow white in my eyes represents purity and innocence. Qualities that although attempted to cover up Connie from “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” possessed. Both young girls that have in many ways been striped of their childhood and freedom.
In my opinion, “Snow White” shows themes that are not necessarily beneficial to kids who read it. There is a huge emphasis on beautify and how the protagonist is the good one because she is the most pure and beautiful. “Little Snow-White, however, grew up, and became prettier and prettier, and when she was seven years old, she was as fair as the noonday, and more beautiful than the Queen herself” (Brothers Grimm). At such a young age Snow White being the beautiful and pure, creates jealousy by the Queen. Similar to last week’s reading, Connie and her mother had a clear unhealthy relationship as well.
Snow White is sent away and she then lives with seven dwarfs that give her shelter in return of Snow White being their house maid. (also, a part that in retrospect I did notice and believe is a little old fashioned). After her third Attempt of being kidded by her mother, the Queen succeeds at last to be the fairest of them all. The dwarfs put her in a glass coffin and watch her every day. They are then introduced to a prince that falls in love with Snow Whites beauty, where yet again, is the reoccurring theme of the story. Later in the tale the coffin falls and Snow White awakens, the prince and her fall in love and get married. This is all happening to a girl that is 7 years old. I find it quite interesting how our present notions and values have changed from past accepted norms that were read to children growing up.
All in all, my interpretation of the story has left me thinking of many other fairytales that I grew up on. Perhaps the pasts interpretation of happy ever after is no longer what we believe in.
-0504
Hello David,
I agree with your points. Both characters have been robbed of their childhood and represent purity. When it comes to the emphasis on beauty we have to also see that there are negative effects. Beauty can be a double edge sword and can get young minds into trouble. We see this happen to Connie as she used her beauty to get what she wants, almost like a superpower. As we know in the end this power is used against her. Snow White also uses this power to persuade the hunter, dwarves, and the price. However, Snow White is put to work in order to live with the dwarves. I agree when you say “n my opinion, “Snow White” shows themes that are not necessarily beneficial to kids who read it.” The story is stuck in time and it does not represent what young should be learning or the real meaning of beauty.
Section: 0503
As I went into these two readings this week, I had only known the story of Snow White from simply seeing the Disney cartoon adaption as a child. Reading into the actual story now older gave me a much deeper perspective into the story and what concepts and ideas being embedded into the work that flew over my head as a child. The poem and the story both brought purity to a coming of age story. This is demonstrated in things such as the name “Snow White” acting as clear symbolism for purity. Similar to “The White Heron”, the color is used to symbolize the character as pure. Although the reading can come across as a simple good versus evil story, it is clear that there is also a coming of age story put forth in the writing. This concept is similarly depicted “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been”. The way in which Snow White must fend for herself in order to get by after her step mother’s outrage towards her makes her develop maturely and begin to understand life outside of the comfort zone of her step mother’s home. What I found most striking about Bettleheim’s analysis was the connection it made to Oedipus. This connection is thought provoking as the details relating to it that Bettleheim describes makes clear sense and truly makes one think.
Section 0503
Hi Richard, I definitely agree. As we grow we become to nourish into our own and understand things from different perspective. Even when we don’t want too it’s forced onto us. I think both story gives off a small vibes of responsibility. Which both ladies were finally coming into their own on and learning about themselves.
Hi Richard,
I too never read this version of the story. I actually wasn’t aware that they were any other version, to be honest. I chose to respond to your comment because I also talked about symbolism in this story in my comment and I agree that she is a symbol of innocence and purity. At the end of the day, she is a young girl that needs her family to be kind and supportive of her. To be honest I am not sure if I agree with you about “The way in which Snow White must fend for herself in order to get by after her step mother’s outrage towards her makes her develop maturely and begin to understand life outside of the comfort zone of her step mother’s home.” I think there was another element that caused maturity for snow white and that was the seven dwarfs. They helped her to be mature but also supported her and that is my definition of helping someone grow rather than leaving them in misery and hoping that things will change for good for them. After all, we saw in last week’s story that this happy ending doesn’t happen to everyone in a similar situation.
Section 0534
Richard, I’m glad the readings amplified your prior experience with the story. I think you make excellent points about the theme of innocence, as suggested in the name “Snow White.” The Oates story also presents a chilling exploration of innocence and evil meeting face to face. Coming-of-age stories, as we know, often deal with the loss of innocence. We saw that in the stories we read earlier in the term, such as “Araby” and “A White Heron.”
Reading the “Snow White” story by The Brothers Grimm and the poem by Anne sexton, It’s quiet some similarities and insights to the story “ where are you going, where have you been” snow who is very comparable because both story showcased the damaged relationships between two mother and daughter that persuade an hate crime. Snow white step mom who got aware of Snow White beauty by a mirror and Connie mom who got conflicted with her daughter beauty. During the process of both story Snow White being unaware of her step mother venture of expressing disparaging opinion and Connie feeling like her mother was out to get her because of the free life she was living, caused her step mother and Connie to self destruct. Both story show a path in contradictory and self destruction. Connie and Snow White who both comes from dysfunctional family personalities caused a stir in their family’s relationship and connecting within each other. Connie hate for her mother caused her to go about living her life the way she wanted too and Snow White step mother relying on the mirrors truth caused her to take evil action against Snow White for her personal gain. Causing a evolution processing of Connie falling into the wrong path and Snow White evil step mother plans to kill Snow White backfired onto her. Both story are compared as a mother daughter relationship that could either be dysfunctional on both ends. Even thought Connie mother made irrational decision and derogatory comments about her daughter aside her mom was still trying to raise her in her conservative way.
Section – 0503
Taheed, thanks for the good observations about the mother-daughter conflict in the various Snow White stories. How do you feel Bettleheim handled this subject in his chapter?
As someone who never read the full version of “Little Snow White” before, I was shocked by the details of the story. I only read (and watched) the short, Disney version of the story when I was a child, and I was not even aware of the existence of this version. I must say I did not expect the story to be as rich as it was and reading this story was surprising and interesting to me.
There are many points about the story that stood out to me. I am not sure if I actively seek symbolism or this story was very rich with symbols. From the dark forest that she had to walk through to start her journey, to the seven dwarfs, or the poisonous apple. The dark place can be the family she has. Full of jealousy, betrayal, and loneliness. The place that she has to survive to be able to even start her journey. Another example of the use of symbolism is 7 dwarves. We know that seven is the symbol of protection and connection to the universe. Muslim pilgrims walk around the Kaaba seven times. In the book of revelation, there are seven churches, seven angels, seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven stars. In this story, these seven dwarfs are doing what her parents should have done for the girl. They teach her about responsibility, they are kind to her. They warn her about the threats and they are patient and caring when she makes a wrong choice.
Another point that worth mentioning is the similarity between this story and Adam and Eve’s in respect to the temptation and the punishment that comes after they give up to their desire when they know they shouldn’t have. “Snow-White very much wished for the beautiful apple, and when she saw the woman eating the core she could no longer resist, but, stretching out her hand, took the poisoned part.” (Bettelheim, 18).
In regards to the connections between this fairytale and the last week’s “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” I want to say they in my opinion they are coming to form the same root. Connie and Snow White are both coming from a family that fails to fulfill its responsibility to care for and protect them, therefore they fail their children. The only difference in my mind is that in the Snow White story, she gets a second chance, which is not happening for Connie.
I believe the reason behind the difference between the ending of this story and the last week’s is our desire to see light in the darkest places. Last week we had to face the harsh truth and what happened to Connie. But this story is very old and people were able to project their desire for hope and a happy ending on this story through generations to make it bearable and to keep the hope alive in their lives.
Section 0534
In “Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” we see beauty used as a double edge sword. Snow White represents purity in the story, but her beauty is her superpower. Beauty leads Snow White to be banished from the realm. At the same time, it was her beauty that persuaded the huntsman, dwarves, and the prince to help her. We also see Connie using her beauty as a form of power over her family and friends. Connie’s beauty is ultimately used against her because she has not learned beauty can attract negative attention. Connie and Snow White both represent purity and the real dangers of being young and naive. Most of all both stories represent the danger of keeping young adults ignorant of the truth of beauty and desire.
Section:0503
Hello Kevin, I really like the points you make in your post. Symbolizing Snow White’s beauty as a superpower, I would say is a wonderful idea. Her stepmother always wanted to take that superpower away and eliminate the chosen one forever, you can refer to as a storyline for the next great superhero movie. I also like how you draw comparisons to Connie’s beauty and how this superpower attracts “negative attention.”
Hi Kevin, I agree with you very much, and I do so. Beauty has two sides, one side is the beauty brought by beauty, and the other side is the darkness brought by beauty. Maybe this is the magic of beauty, which makes people around me fascinate. Coupled with the purity of Snow White, everyone yearns for it. Making mistakes is the best lesson for them, because they can learn from them. If Connie can make another choice, I believe she will not make the same decision. She will cherish her family.
SECTION 0503
Hi Kevin,
I like your comment about how beauty is a “double-edged sword.” Yes, being beautiful can be blissful but it can also bring pain and trouble. Both stories, “Where are you going where are you been?” and “The Little Snow White” proves that but in the “Little Snow White,” the dwarfs made it clear to Snow White that even though she is indeed beautiful, it is not a free pass to just stay in their home. The dwarfs made it clear to her that things needed to be done. I think that is a very important part in the story because it shows that being beautiful doesn’t always get you what you want, you have to work for it.
Section 0503
After reading the story of “Little Snow White” and the poem “Snow White” by Anne Sexton my response to the story is that jealousy fuels a lot of negative emotions and hatred. Despite the fact that the Queen was Snow White’s stepmother, she was excessively obsessed with being the most beautiful in Kingdom. For starters, readers may be forced to ask themselves who on earth wants to have a mirror that tell them if they are the “fairest of them all” or at the same time they might be thankful that such mirrors aren’t created anymore.
“Her Stepmother, a beauty in her own right,
Though eaten, of course, by age,
Would hear of no beauty surpassing her own” (Sexton, Lines 16-19). In these lines, Sexton showcased one of the themes of obsession present throughout the description of the Queen.
After reading these literary works, a connection I can find to “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” is that Snow White is very much like Connie. Two young girls that struggle under to overcome temptation, this connection is also present in Bettelheim’s insight of the story.
Section 0504.
Ebube, you raise a good question as to why anyone would want a mirror like the one in “Little Snow White.” I think Connie actually might have wanted such a mirror, obsessed as she was by her looks. I think the mirror has much to do with obsession and, as you mention, obsessive jealousy.
When I after read this “Little Snow White” by the Brothers Grimm and “Snow White”, My sense of reading is to learn from each mistake and make my mind stronger and grow. The possible connections between this fairytale, the poem, and last week’s story “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” is there is always someone around Snow White to help her when she is in distress, but no one around Connie’s to help her. So Connie’s thoughts became extremely cruel. Although fairy tales are not true, these things happen every day, and they often happen to people. Nowadays, many parents don’t pay too much attention to their children, and the children may not know what they did wrong. If things happen seriously, there is no way to repent. Fairy tales are fairy tales because they have perfect endings, but the reality is cruel, and no one can predict what will happen in the next second. I think everyone needs to know to make up for what they did wrong. It may be a sincere apology, or an effort to help others.
SECTION 0503
Mei Yan, you make some good observations about fairytales and how they can convey lessons. Most—though not all—fairytales do have happy endings, which is why some regard “Where Are You Going . . .” as an inverted fairytale in which things do not work out well. Do you have any thoughts about the Bettleheim piece and its exploration of “Little Snow White?”
After reading “Little Snow White” written by Brothers Grimm I was able to draw out a few connections and similarities between this magical fairy tale and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” written by Joyce Carol Oates. In both story’s it starts off with an innocent girl who is hated on by someone else in the family. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Connie’s mom tends to criticize her for not being like her older sister and in “Little Snow White” the wicked stepmother is on the hunt to kill Snow White. In both tales both girls are put into a situation of extreme stress. All while being tricked by two antagonistic people pretending to be something they are not. However, in “Little Snow White” the dwarfs come to the rescue and help out Snow White. While in Connie’s case, she ended up risking her life in order to save her family and had to go with Arnold Friend. Also, I believe these two stories can show how, not even only girls, but people at a young age in general can be so over powered with temptation and ignorance. In a way, both families of the girls seem to not play a big part in protecting their little girls.
Sec 0534
Hello David,
I agree with your comments. First, you emphasized the fact that those two girls are young and because of that they are overpowered with temptation and ignorance, which will make them manipulated and put them in an unfortunate situation. And in terms of the family, they both the same type of family setting were even though carrying but that will not prevent bad things to happen at the end of the girl’s lives.
0503
David, thanks for the comments about the stories. How do the ideas of Bettleheim connect with your own insights or observations?
The Reading “Snow White” by Anne Sexton, was very interesting to me. And it does look connects to the last week’s reading “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”. Same themes are involved in both reading such as passion, innocence, beauty, young, attraction, human character, rival, family, conflict, pain, etc…A sense of not a pleasant relationship between Snow White and the queen on one side and Connie and her mother on the other side. In both stories, those two little girls are suffering in their lives or are victims of others. another thing that is common in these two stories is the fact that the authors do not mention the father of the young girls, maybe if the father were involved in their education it will help with their education and prevent those unfortunate situations especially Connie’s stories. The queen manages to manipulate Snow White the same way Arnold manipulates Connie.
0503
Suadou, thank you for your comments. Where do the ideas expressed by Bettleheim fit into your appreciation of the story?
The clearest connection between the Brothers Grimm version of Snow White and Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been, is the common theme of a loss of innocence. Snow White is forced to abandon her prestigious and pampered lifestyle very abruptly when she’s forced to flee into the woods after her life is threatened. She then has to carry her own load in her life, and learn the dangers of the world to protect herself. While it happens in a significantly shorter time span, the same can be said for Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been. At one point, Connie leads a carefree lifestyle, disaffected by her parents and authority figures in general. Her only interests are her extra curricular activities with her friends. But when a predator comes at her door, everything changes. She now has to outsmart someone twice her age so she can escape with her life.
With all of this in mind, it’s very encouraging to see Bettleheim break down stereotypes that fairly tales are “just for kids” and should be dismissed as such. I also appreciate how he acknowledges that to an extent, children do realize the fictional context of these fairy tales. When they ask, they’re asking to make sure if these fairy tales being told are addresses their greatest concerns.
Section 0504
Hi Caleb, I agree with you that “The clearest connection between the Brothers Grimm version of Snow White and Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been, is the common theme of a loss of innocence” because the both main characters are innocence and have two evil characters which is Arnold Friend and the Queen. Connie is innocent and also very naive. I feel like she does not know what to do with her life, like choosing the wrong person(Arnold). Snow-White is innocent but the character is so mature and wise that it makes her more mature than other characters in this story. She has a lot of knowledge about everything and everyone around he, but she doesn’t know how to use it properly. I like how you mentioned Bettleheim breaking down stereotypes. He points out stereotypes and shows them through his writing.
Reading the story of “Little Snow White” by Brothers Grimm and “Snow White” by Anne Sexton took me back to my childhood. I still remember reading this story along with Beauty and the Beast, and The Sleeping Beauty. The first thing that caught my attention was the fact that snow-white is the only girl in the fairy tale. She is a beautiful young woman who has been born into a noble family. Snow-White is a very decent girl who is very kind and generous. Her step-mother doesn’t want anyone to be beautiful rather than her but when the mirror speaks snow-white is the fairest the Queen couldn’t resist. When the Seven Dwarfs told her not to open the door but still she opened it without even thinking what would happen to her “ Beware, beware, they said” (Sexton, Lines 115). But still she opens the door. At the end of the story the prince married Snow- White and the Queen couldn’t do anything to kill her. Brother Grimm and Anne Sexton try to show that beauty can be found in all things. The both character Snow-White and the Queen have a very different view on beauty. Beauty is something which can be seen only through eyes.
There are some connections between “ Where Are You Going, Where Are You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates and “Little Snow White” by Brothers Grimm because these two stories have two Evil in the story which are Arnold Friend and The Queen. Connie and Snow White were both very beautiful women, but they had a different personality. Connie is very beautiful, but she is very obsessed about her beauty and appearance. Other side Snow White who is very beautiful and has a good personality, doesn’t care about the beauty, but cares about the people around her.
Section: 0503
Humayra, I’m glad you mention the basic goodness of Snow White. Bettleheim points this out in his article when he discusses her unwillingness to eat all the porridge from one plate. This indicates a degree of impulse control, although she seems to lose this moderation in her dealings with the disguised queen. I’d be interested in hearing your comments about the Bettleheim part of the assignment.
Hi Professor, yes I realized after posting it that I haven’t talk about the Bettleheim’s psychologically. Bettleheim points out about Snow White and the seven dwarfs how she has problems and her period of growth. He also pointed out that fairly tale life begins with a child’s manner and impasse. The story is told in a very simple way, but it has many elements. Snow White should learn how to protect herself after getting so many attacks from her evil step-mother. “Narcissism is very much part of the young child’s make-up. The child must gradually learn to transcend this dangerous form of self involvement. The story of Snow White warns of the evil consequences of narcissism for both parent and child. Snow White’s narcissism nearly undoes her as she gives in twice to the disguised queen’s enticements to make her look more beautiful, while the queen is destroyed by her own narcissism” ( Bettleheim 203). This shows that we are all affected by our own narcissistic tendencies and can be seen in the way we react when someone is being mean or unkind to us. It’s a common theme in fairy tales,but it has been used in many other forms throughout history.
Humayra, thanks very much for the follow-up!
I was really surprised to read the original story of Snow White. Wine and porridge? The queen ate her heart? I wandered, where was her father in all of this? Similar to “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been,” the male figure was disconnected. Connie was vain, however, in her stage of adolescence it’s not an abnormal finding. The queen appeared to never have passed this stage of life successfully. I also wandered why the prince wanted to keep a “dead” Snow White. The real tale of Snow White seems creepy to me, very much like Oates story. I wasn’t too impressed with Anne Sexton’s poem, it was more of a summary.
Bettleheim’s analysis was very interesting. I saw how the Oedipus theory played out in this story when she highlighted it. The parent-child conflict she speaks of is not one I thought about until I read her analysis and I consider it true. The analysis was my favorite part of this weeks reading assignment.
Section 0504
Hi Arlene, this was my first time reading “Little Snow White” and Anne Sexton’s poem as well. I was taken aback at how dull the poem turned out and agreed it was not that impressive, but I truly enjoyed “Little Snow White.” You touched upon how the father is missing throughout the story, which was a concern of mine. It’s bizarre how a leaf impregnated Snow White’s mother, she vanished, and then the absent father was able to remarry. I guess all that mystery is what keeps the story interesting.
Arlene, I’m so glad you were intrigued by the Bettleheim piece. I find the analysis—or should I say “psychoanalysis?” —very enlightening too. I’m also struck by the whole idea of the absent, weak, or useless father figure. The Huntsman in “Little Snow White” also fits this mold. He is true to neither Snow White or the queen. He assumes Snow White will be eaten by wild animals, but he doesn’t want to kill her himself, and he lies to the Queen!
Both of the stories “Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” use the idea of beauty as the reason for the unfortunate circumstances Snow and Connie get themselves into. Snow White’s name is an example of colour symbolism. The colour white is used to describe purity and innocence. Much like “The White Heron.” In “Snow White,” Snow’s beauty is what led her to be outcast from the world she knew. It was also one of her biggest strengths. Her beauty brought upon her positive attention and aid from the huntsman, dwarves, and the prince. As well as hatred from her stepmother. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Connie uses her beauty as a way to feel above the people around her. She has friends, is relatively popular with boys her age, and she feels invincible. However, Connie’s vanity is ultimately her downfall. This is because she never learned that beauty can bring upon unwanted attention. In my opinion, the quote from Anne Sexton’s poem, “Beauty is a simple passion, but, oh my friends, in the end you will dance the fire dance in iron shoes.” expresses that beauty is temporary. And that people shouldn’t be engulfed by vanity or they’ll find themselves in deeper problems. Connie and Snow White both represent naivety and the idea that beauty is temporary.
Marisa Gulino
Section 0534
Marisa, these are great comments. I’m wondering about the other assigned reading and what you might have to say about Bettleheim’s insights?
After reading the story “Little Snow White” along with the poem “Snow White,” I believe they have a connection to “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by both incorporating a character with evil intentions disguised as good people. In “Little Snow White,” the step-mother trying numerous times to sell “fine, beautiful goods,” and in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Arnold Friend pretends to care for Connie.
Bettleheim wrote, “The queen’s consulting the mirror about her worth—i.e., beauty— repeats the ancient theme of Narcissus, who loved only himself, so much that he became swallowed up by his self-love.” Most narcissists are deeply insecure. This leads me to realize the mirror had the most power. The mirror mixed feelings of anger, hate, jealousy, and rejection within the step-mother and brought that insecurity right on out, causing her to do evil.
I also think the mirror could symbolize how self-consumed some people are and the lengths they go through to be “better” than everyone else.
Section 0534
Hello Faith,
I really love that you understood the predatory characters, Arnold Friend and the evil step-mother, as being “disguised.” Both Arnold Friend and the step-mother are LITERALLY disguised to hide their true, sadistic intentions to gain the trust of their prey, in which they aim to cause physical harm. Both young women are deceived into complacency– Snow White in her acceptance of the goods and Connie in her fear and acceptance of Arnold Friend’s manipulation– due to their infatuation with beauty. Snow White ultimately overcomes these childish tendencies while Connie is never given the opportunity to. Great work on this week’s contribution!
Section: 0503
Faith, I like your remark about the basic insecurity of narcissists. Do you have any response to any of the interesting psychological insights of Bettleheim?
Hi Faith!
I really like your observations, and I especially appreciate how you compare and contrast Arnold Friend and the Evil Stepmother. I like how you point out many of the things they did were out of pure projection. They both hide their nefarious purposes underneath well meaning intentions. On top of that, they exploited their weaknesses and desires. For Snow White, it was her nativity, and for Connie, that was her carefree nature. They spoke their language, they knew how to put them in a vulnerable state so they could lure them in and then subsequently do harm on to them.
Although there are many sources of differing commentary on Grimm’s “Little Snow-White” and Anne Sexton’s poem, “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,” the most striking theme, I find, is revolved around the process of maturing and the classic adolescent archetype moving away from parental dominance and finding their own way in the world. Upon first understanding of the story, the classic fairytale appears to be a whimsical tale of a young girl escaping from her evil step-mother to find true love. However, when analyzed closely, we see many symbolic references to growing up, maturing, and moving from pre-pubescence and dependency towards adolescence and young adulthood. There are so many layers of understanding– it’s hard to choose just one. Many opt to focus in on the sexualization of the virgin stereotype, as in Bettlehim’s psychoanalysis, however, I’ve selected to focus more on the idea of growth from youth to adulthood. These works are very similar to last week’s fairytale gone wrong, “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” in that each literary work centralizes a young girl female character, who in the process of experiencing the latency of childhood, must grow up quickly after encountering a major conflict that is manifested in the form of a predatory character who aims to hurt them. In “Snow White,” this is the evil stepmother, and in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” this is Arnold Friend. Sexton’s poem retells the fairytale and uses a twist of modern references to conceptualize the idea of “the virgin” and her outer beauty rather than her maturation. Bettleheim expresses Snow White’s tendency to fall victim to passion and narcissism due to her child-like immaturity (through the act of accepting the corset, comb, and apple), just as Sexton’s poem does, and he eventually moves on to discuss her process of “incubation” in the glass coffin in which she is visited by a raven, an owl, and a dove which represent insight, wisdom, and love, respectively. This is the “rebirth” Snow White needed to move past the dependency on and dominance of her step-mother to ultimately reach young adulthood in which she marries the prince. Connie from last week’s reading, however, does not share the same fate.
Section: 0503
Emily, thanks again for this insightful and comprehensive response to all three works under discussion this week.
Before reading this i was only familiar with the Disney version of snow white, and up until this point had no idea it strayed so much from the story. I see now the lesson it is trying to teach, that you should follow the advice of friends and family because you might end up in a bad situation. I liked the way the Sexton and Grimm version played off of one another, it was nice to equate Snow White to a more jazzy kinda feel with Sextons unique way of using words. I like how she says snow whites skin is like cigarette paper. I enjoyed reading the original very much and I’m going to have to check out some other Grimm stories I only know of the Disney version of! I think it relates to last weeks story in that this poor girl never had a say in the fact she was beautiful and would beacon towards so much negative energy from bad actors.
Course – 0534
James, thanks for including remarks about the Sexton poem in your comments. How do the ideas in the Bettleheim chapter connect with your own?
I think the original story of Snow white is about letting yourself become obsessed with your ego and having it cause your demise. The queen was so determined to get rid of Snow White she lost her sanity and lost in the end. I think it shows that selfish desire can become self-destructive. In this story and “Where are you going, Where have you been?” is the obsession with beauty and appearance that cause’s the person’s downfall. Connie was also consumed by her looks and that got her into a lot of trouble by attracting Arnold but the difference is that we see her growth when she tries to comply with him to try to save her family. Both Snow White and Connie are troubled girls who are disliked by their mothers and put in very difficult situations. They’re both beautiful young girls that end up in that situation because of their beauty.
Section 0504
Hello Sara Zubaida, I share many of your opinions in relation to beauty as the cause of the fate of the protagonists. Being beautiful is a blessing to many but it was not the case for Connie and Snow White. In the case of the queen, there are many people in real life who go through the same trauma. It is traumatic to go from being a beautiful young woman to seeing your face fall off year after year. That’s a process that some people just can’t get through.
Section 0534
Zubaida, you haven’t mentioned the Bettleheim piece. How do his ideas impinge on your own?
Hi Zubaida Sara, i enjoyed your post, and i also found the story to be about the obsession and ego we can possess, i not so flattering condition. I liked what you when you said “Both Snow White and Connie are troubled girls who are disliked by their mothers and put in very difficult situations.” do you think if their mothers were a bit more caring and concerned they would have met a different outcome?
Course – 0534
Like many, the only Snow White I knew of was the Disney version. As I got older, I started to become familiar with the Brothers Grimm tales, but I never read them. So, reading it now, it was very interesting. I see a very large comparison between “Little Snow White” and last week’s reading “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” They both showed a common theme of self-absorption, betrayal, and growth. Both characters in “Little Snow White” can relate to Connie. The Stepmother, like Connie, seemed to have an obsession with her appearance. The Stepmother would go to a mirror for recognition. She was so invested in being the “fairest of them all” that when the mirror told her she was no longer she plotted Snow White’s demise. Connie didn’t go as far as the stepmother but, she also revolved around her appearance.
Snow White and Connie had some similarities as well. With them being very young and both suffering hardships where they both suffered betrayal, they had their strengths tested.
0534
Senia, any comments on the Bruno Bettleheim piece and how his ideas might support or oppose your own?
Fairy tales weren’t always a favorite for me unless they were the Grimm Brother fairy tales, I love the gruesome and dark tales that they wrote.
The feeling of innocence and vulnerability is what I get from the story “Little Snow White,” you can get this from the name of the story as well. The little in the title can be thought of as a way of the Grimm Brothers really trying to show us these two things about Snow White. The similarities that I picked up from “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been” are the messed up relationships between the characters and their moms that resulted in turmoil. Another similarity, would be the way the characters were both nervous to open the door. Connie and Snow are also both young girls that were unsure of what they wanted in their lives, people in their youth can be very naive and think that they know what they want but in all reality they really don’t (we have all been there before). We can also connect Friend and the Queen due to them both wanting to try something devious to the MC’s (main characters).
I don’t know if it’s just me but I find it creepier that both Connie and Friend basically needed an invite from their individual victims and not only that but they both hide their identities, making it easier to trick their respective targets. Both evil characters also go about things the same way to bring out the selfishness of Snow and Connie. These two works kind of reminded me of real life, because it seems like that due to their naivety and innocence they both experienced torment.
Section: 0503
Zakiyah, these are good observations, but how do the ideas in the Bettleheim reflect on “Little Snow White” or shed light on your own?
Hi Zakiyah, I like your perspective on the naivete of both Connie and Snow White. As I read and thought about all three stories, that wasn’t something that I thought about. I think it’s an essential aspect of the story to point out because it emphasizes how the stories’ villains can manipulate these characters. On top of that, this naivete is a result of the conflict between mothers and their daughters. The conflict between them forces the daughters to get put into situations that force them to lose their innocence.
Zakiyah, I was the exact opposite growing up! I loved fairy tales, especially ones with a beautiful and happy ending. I think my mom sheltered me from all the “real” stories because I had never read them before. I liked the comparison you made from the innocence of Snow White to the title, I had never thought about it like that.. just adding that one simple word changes the feel of the entire story.
After reading the poem “Snow White” by Anne Sexton, I don’t see it as the Disney movie I watched years ago. As I was ready the short lecture as well, “Little Snow White” by Bruno Bettleheim it made me open an entire different perspective. Just like “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been” Joyce Carol Oates, I believe now that Snow White was more of a coming of age story with a twist of fate for the stepmother. We were able ro read the real story and how the stepmother had to deal with the repercussions of her actions, hence the red shoes that were forced to be on her feet as punishment. To be fair, I think she deserved more than that considering she had ordered the huntsman to kill her.
According to the lecture, the reason it was more of a coming of age story is because the dwarfs didn’t treat her as the princess she was. In return for allowing her to stay, she had to cook, clean and wash clothes for the dwarfs. At the same time, she had to face real life tests by attempting to dodge her stepmother’s spiteful antics. Even though everyone thought Snow White was beautiful she didn’t flaunt her beauty the way Connie did but throughout the story, they’re both out through tests that make them mature in a way that most women have to. It just makes me think that no matter what, women will always have hardships throughout their lives whether they’re aware of their beauty or not. Maybe not evil stepmothers, though.
Section 0504
Hello Nathaly,
This lecture is very different from what we have seen in movies when we were children.
The punishment for the stepmother is not enough she deserves more for what she did. I like that you mention beauty as a connection with Connie, as well as hardship through the lives that women live. As we can see these two women are target for their beauty. Most of the women are target for their beauty and because they are defenless.
Section 0504
Nathaly,
Yes, I can definitely agree that the original snow white is significantly different from the innocent tale about a beautiful girl destined to be a princess that I remember from my childhood. There’s a moral to the story a lot deeper than that. To describe it as a coming of age story actually makes sense to me, she overcomes many challenges and shows growth before becoming a princess. I think “Where are you going, Where have you been?” can also be considered a coming of age story but a little darker because of the very unsettling ending. But we see Connie change from a young girl obsessed with her own looks to sacrificing herself for her family. I think she becomes a little selfless for people she didn’t care for before by the end of the story.
Nathaly, you make good observations here. Do you have any response to the Bettleheim piece?
Analyzing the story and the Snow White poem I was able to observe several things. First, the queen’s envy, jealousy, and obsession with the innocent, sweet, and generous Snow White. Jealousy and excessive obsession of the queen drive her to madness, trying to kill Snow White several times. At the end of the story, the queen, knowing that there was someone more beautiful than her, ran away and no one else heard from her again and in the poem, she put on burning shoes and burned little by little. I could say that anger and jealousy killed her. The connections I make between these two Snow White writings and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” are. First, in both cases, a father or mother figure is missing. in Connie’s case, the father figure is missing and in Snow White’s case, her mother died when she was born. Second, the ego and the obsession with physical beauty that Connie and the queen shared. For Connie, it was the reason why Arnold became interested in her and for the queen, it was the reason for wanting to kill Snow White. Third, Snow White had several chances to revive but Connie possibly didn’t get a second chance. In general, there are people who do not accept that everything has its end and that youth is only a moment in our lives. It is sad and unfortunate to see how there are people who are capable of killing or others out of envy or madness. There are also others who put their own lives at risk for vanity.
Section 0534
Raquel, do you any thoughts on how your ideas reflect or oppose those expressed in the Bettleheim chapter?
Hi Celeste Conway, after reading Bettleheim’s chapter on Snow White I realized that my ideas are reflected on narcissism between people. First, the jealousy that exists between parents and children, then the threat that the queen sees Snow White. Finally, the development process that people go through since they are born, going through difficulties, dealing with competition, and assimilating that time passes and with this our lives are gone.
Section 0534
Raquel, thank you for the follow-up.
Raquel,
I think the queen’s story in Snow White is something to learn from. She was so determined to get rid of Snow White to achieve what she thought would make her life complete, but it backfired and ruined her because her jealousy was self-destructive. I didn’t notice the similarity that both characters were missing an important parent figure in their life, I guess that adds to the trouble young girl with no guidance scenario in both stories. Both of them also ended up in so much trouble being chased by because of their beauty,
Raquel, I think it is very fair to say that anger and jealousy was the cause of her death and disappearance. I thought you were very thoughtful in the way you compared the queen to Connie. Their egocentric ways and obsession with their outward appearance was the demise of them. Overall, good response!
Hey Raquel,
After reading this story what I can take from it is that jealousy, anger, and infatuation can ruin a person’s life. It was yet another life lesson in a book, the queen was so focused on trying to complete her goal that it ended up actually working against her rather than in her favor. Due to this it caused the queen’s ruin and destruction by her own hands. I find it crazy just how much problems beauty can cause and that this can apply to the real world too, because I’m pretty sure we all know that some people like Connie and Snow experience things like this to a certain degree.
In the poem “Snow White” by Anne Sexton, the author describes a story in which the Queen is jealous because the Princess is fairest than her. The connection that we can find between this week’s reading and last week’s reading “Where are you going, where have you being” is how an older person tries to ruin an innocent girl’s life. These stories are different from each other but they have some connection. First, we can see that these aggressors try to manipulate innocent girls when they are at home alone. The aggressors want to meet innocent girls. In the first reading, the aggressor wants the victim to get in the car. In the other reading, the aggressor wants to open the house’s door so she gets in. We can see also that it is not easy for the aggressors to achieve their goal, they have to try over and over again.
section 0504
Hey Miguel, hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving! I like the connection/link that you found between the tale “Snow White” by Anne Sexton and “Where are you going, where have you being” written by Joyce Carole Oates. They way you said “how an older person tries to ruin an innocent girl’s life.” As that is true in both cases for Snow White and Connie. I also didn’t release myself that how hard the antagonists were trying to get into both these girls out of there houses and how both girls were not trying to let them in at first. Good observation!! It sucks that right Connie was not able to be saved, but at lease Snow White was rescued and received help from the dwarfs. Let me know what you think!
SEC 0534
Miguel, did you forget to discuss the Bettleheim piece?
After reading Bettleheim’s reading, the theme would be that of an Oedipus complex. Bettleheim’s reading discusses that the Oedipus complex is a conflict between a child and their same-sex parent. He uses Snow White and her stepmother as an example to explain that there is a conflict between the two that stems from the stepmother, who is envious of her stepdaughter. Snow White has her own part to play as Bettelheim suggests that she fuels the conflict by being in competition with her stepmother for her father’s affection. I personally don’t feel that snow white is competing directly for his attention, but more so indirectly by getting attention in general because of her beauty. Based on the fairytale, I feel Snow White is innocent, and she isn’t actively trying to fuel conflict, but in the poem, I could see how Bettleheim’s ideas hold true. In the last few lines, we see Snow White is aware of her beauty, and I could see how she learned from her stepmother to be vain and then compete with her. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” I find that there is a similar conflict between Connie and her mother. Connie and her mom are in conflict because she feels as though Connie is too focused on her appearance, and Connie fuels the conflict by going back and forth with her mom about her looks. While both aren’t competing for others’ attention, Connie is fueling the conflict by seeking the attention of men and arguing with her mother. Her mother fuels it by constantly critiquing and comparing Connie to her sister. I find the idea of the Oedipus conflict to be fascinating since it’s a subconscious occurrence, but it plays out consciously. I think this is definitely present in all stories; however, the difference is who fuels the conflict more. In the poem and last week’s story, the daughters are taking an active part in fueling the conflicts, yet their mothers are the ones starting it. Still, in the fairytale, the stepmother is starting it and fueling it while Snow White indirectly participates.
Section 0503
The story of Snow White and the seven Dwarfs have always been one of my favorite childhood stories for many reasons. As a child, I had always liked looking in mirrors and reminding myself of how beautiful I thought I was or my mother had told me from time to time. The part of this story that I like the most, however, is how caring and protective the dwarfs were of Snow White. Not only did they decide to shelter her from the envy and hatred of her stepmother, but they constantly warned her, “Be careful of your stepmother…Do not let anyone in.“ Reading both the original, “Little Snow White” by the Grimm Brothers and the poetic version “Snow White and the seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton, I realized that this story bears resemblance to the one focused on for last week’s discussion, namely “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?“ by Joyce Oates.
The characters in both stories mentioned above, the stepmother and Connie respectively, were fascinated with the mirror. This shows how vein and conceited they both were. The stepmother would communicate with the mirror frequently asking “Mirror, mirror, on the wall, Who in this land is fairest of all?“ Connie on the other hand would “glance into mirrors or checking other people’s faces to make sure her own was all right.“ The dependency on the mirror for reassurance of their beauty shows that they lacked self-confidence. They were both proud and thought that beauty mattered. This thought led me to do some self-reflection.
As I reflect on these two stories, my major take away is that one has got to be careful who they let into their space as people may come as sheep in wolves clothing trying to deceive you. This was evident in the disguise the stepmother put on to get Snow White so that she can kill herself. In her innocence snow white ignored the warnings given to her by the caring dwarfs on more than one occasions. She therefore allowed her stepmother to get to her and hurt her. In the case of Connie, being shallow and naïve she entertained the company of Arnold friend and Ellie who eventually were able to carry her away against her wishes into the unknown.
-Sec0503
Hi Kendra,
It seems that beauty is a curse if we are just examining these two stories. It provides luxuries but these luxuries often come with a price, either by negative emotions of others or otherwise.
Patrick, please be aware of length requirements for posts.
Kendra, thank you for the good comments. Do you have any response to some of the ideas put forth in the Bettleheim chapter?
Section 0503
I had never read the original story of Snow White, I have seen the Disney movies many times and even have been in a production of “Snow White”, but reading the original story “Little Snow White” was eye opening, especially as an adult who loved the story growing up. I realized that the queen was more than not friendly. She is a type of real life evil. Sometimes you read stories and see movies with the evil characters and think, that could never happen, no one could be that evil, but jealousy and envy are two things that run strong in many people. The queen is vain and she is willing to do whatever it takes to be THE most beautiful woman, even if it turns her cold and ugly on the inside. In the poem by Anne Sexton she writes how until the queen found out that Snow White was more beautiful than she was she,
“had been no more important
than a dust mouse under the bed.”
Claire, I’m glad you enjoyed the original version of “Little Snow White.” How about the Bettleheim article? Do you have any responses to that?
Most of us have heard this story long ago in our childhood somewhere. I remember hearing an analysis of the story as the seven dwarves being linked to the seven deadly sins. How true this is I don’t know, and I heard it a long time ago so I don’t fully remember all the aspects of the argument. It did stick with me though as an odd interpretation. Of what I can recall, it delt with the Queen symbolizing neglective, self-absorbed parents; the dwarves symbolizing the seven deadly sins, are what the youth must struggle and fight against every day alone in the world, while the parent isn’t there to guide and protect. Furthermore the Queens attempts to kill the child represented the parents attempts to right the path of said youth, using anger and force and discipline without teaching. Ultimately sinking the child deeper and deeper into the paths of these sins. Anyway, thought it was a fresh interpretation.
Sec. 0504
Patrick, thanks for the comments. What about some of the points brought up in the Bettleheim article?
After reading “Little Snow White” by Logan Marshall and “Snow White” by Anne Sexton, I feel like the connection between that the two share involves, jealousy and the lengths a jealous person would go. Throughout both works, the Queen had been the “fairest” out of all the people. Then one day she had asked the mirror “who is the fairest of them all?” The mirror would reply with telling the Queen that Snow-White is the fairest. So the queen tries to kill Snow-White multiple times, so that way she can be the “fairest” again. That’s where the jealousy comes to play. She hated Snow-White so much that she, wanted to kill her so she can claim her shine again. In the end, the Queen ends up dying in the poem and she was never seen again in the short story. Now where I believe these two works connect to last weeks reading, “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates is, in the eeriness of all three stories. I feel like all three adventure to a dark place that some women have or had to deal with. Maybe they haven’t had to deal with anything like the main character from “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” but it might be a fear that some women have.
Section 0503
Brandon, thank you for the comments. Who is Logan Marshall? And do you have any response to the Bettleheim chapter?
The fairy tale “Snow-White” recorded by the Brothers Grimm and Joyce Carol Oates’s short story “Where Are You Going? Where Have You Been” both share themes relating to duplicity and the vulnerability of innocence. Much like Arnold Friend wearing makeup, stilts, and young clothes to appear approachable to Connie, Snow White’s stepmother alters her appearance to gain the trust of Snow White, presenting herself as a peasant and widow to seem harmless to Snow White only to attempt her murder. Duplicity is also shown in the items offered to Snow White that get her to open the door despite being told numerous times not to by the dwarves — externally beautiful apples, laces, and combs that have been poisoned or designed to harm her. Bettleheim makes an interesting observation to the items offered to Snow White saying “The readiness with which Snow White repeatedly permits herself to be tempted by the stepmother, despite the warnings of the dwarfs, suggests how close the stepmother’s temptations are to Snow White’s inner desires.” These items speak to the inevitable maturity of Snow White similar to Arnold Friend’s attitude and appearance that opens Connie’s interest towards him. The final interactions between Connie and Arnold Friend are very similar to Snow White’s interactions with her stepmother as they are the only one’s home, a stranger attempts to gain their trust, and danger begins once they’ve opened the door. The vulnerability of their innocence is both taken advantage of by duplicitous figures.
-Section 0504
After analyzing all three pieces of work, it is clear that these stories speak to the innocence of teenagers. Connie was so vain, that she didn’t realize how much she was in danger until it was too late. Snow White an Connie were both to caught up in vanity to see that there was a much greater threat. The unfortunate reality is that Connie didn’t have the seven dwarfs to come save her. The Queen and Arnold share similar qualities of appealing to the girls beauty but had true malicious intentions. The took advantage of how naive the young girls were and used their own vain to try and hurt them. Its interesting because this story can be told a million ways, but the theme is still the same.
Young beautiful girls are constantly taken advantage of.
.
Section 0534
In the reading of Snow White, both poem and reading by the Grimm Brothers and Anne Sexton reveal a huge message of the queens villainy. It is the narcissistic parent who feels most threatened by his child’s growing up because that means the parent must be aging. When the child matures and reaches for independence, then she is experinced as a menace by such parent. This goes to show how beauty is vain.
In connection to the story “Where are you Going, Where Have you Been,” like the witch in “Snow White” Arnold Friend comes to Connie in disguise and pretends to care for her, but he has evil intentions. Just like the step
mother who disguise herself as a older lady, in order to poison Snow to kill her for her own selfish gains. I found this interesting because both Arnold and the step mother represent the ugly reality of beauty.
section 0504