Week 6 Discussion

Oldipus: What can I see to love? 1525 what greeting can touch my ears with joy? take me away, and haste- to the place out of the way! take me away, my friends, the greatly miserable, the most accursed, whom god too hates above all men on earth! I think this passage meaning or it’s referring to of who or which men can he trust or feel love as a friend, if from all men they an betray you. From what you have or are many of them sometimes envy you for that and want what you have, so that’s what I think he is trying to say. He also say this because of the truth of what happen with the king on that age who slowly betray not just only any friend or men. Doing whatever for what a man what’s, he becomes the worst from everyone. This is what this passage is most saying, as he says, What can I see to love, If he you don’t know who can betray you. Take me away, my friends, the greatly miserable, the most accursed. whom god too hates above all men on earth. referring to, all those bad mean friends, who even god might hate betray you and even though they are your friends.

Alex Barrios  Professor Conway  ENG 201 Sec. 0517  October 3, 2022    “I say with those you love best you live in foulest shame unconsciously and do not see where you are n calamity.” – Line 416 TEIRESIAS conversing with OEDIPUS.    This line catches my attention the most because for Teiresias she warned Oedipus that the knowledge she had on her king about what he had done would stir his anger to which she confirmed. The line flows very beautifully and there’s a particular contrast between love and shame along with a bit of irony as she mentions that he “does not see where he is the calamity.” while she herself is blind because she has no eyes. It’s a good example of people who ask for truth often aren’t really prepared to accept it-let alone hear it. So, Oedipus responds by almost in a threatening tone in Line 426, “Do you imagine you can always talk like this and live to laugh at it hereafter”. The two lines for encapsulates the idea that a man can ask and seek guidance and yet choose to remain closed-minded.       

“Who is the man proclaimed by Delphi’s prophetic rock as the bloody handed murderer,545 the doer of deeds that none dare name? Now is the time for him to run with a stronger foot than Pegasus, for the child of Zeus leaps in arms upon him 550 with fire and the lightning bolt, and terribly close on his heels are the Fates that never miss. “    To me this passage poses the question as to who the murderer is. Also, it warns that they should leave the kingdom as quickly as possible to avoid the inevitable outcome of them being brought to justice for their crime, “Now is the time to run with stronger foot than Pegasus” In Greek mythology the “Pegasus” was a winged horse capable of swift and speedy travel via flight. “For the child of Zeus leaps in arms upon him with fire and the Lightning bolt” Zeus was depicted as the King of the Greek Gods Upon the death of Laius his essence returned to the God he worshiped “Zeus” and because of his servitude the “Lightning Bolt” or Justice of the Gods will be done because the Fates(fate) deems it so and the Fates are never wrong, “Fates that never miss.” 

“…a war God ringed with the cries of men, savage God who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backwards out of our country’s bounds to the great palace of Amphitrite or where the waves of the Thracian Sea 215 deny the stranger safe anchorage. Whatsoever escapes the night at last the light of day revisits; so smite the War God, Father Zeus, beneath you are thunderbolt, 220 for you are the Lord of the lightning, the lightning that carries fire.” This is after oedipus talks about the king he had killed and said he would not have the same fate. But you can’t escape Gods plan for you or want different. “Oedipus the king” is a Greek mythology. It’s about how Oedipus unknowingly killed his father and married his mother. The king of Thebes was warned by oracle about how his son was going to kill him. When Jocasta birth her son he was taken away, but the shepherd felt bad and gave him away to be adopted by King Polybus. When Oedipus entered adulthood, he visited Delphi and learned his faith to kill his father and marry his mother. He chooses to leave his home, Corinth, and never return. When he was traveling towards Thebes, he ran into Laius and killed him. He was rewarded in becoming king of Thebes and married Jocasta and birthed his kids. He couldn’t get away from his faith.

OEDIPUS: For what you ask me—if you hear my words and welcome them and fight the plague, you will find strength and lightening your load. Hark to me; what I say to you, I say 235 as a stranger to the story as a stranger to the deed, for I would not be far upon the track if I alone were tracing it without a clue. But now, since after all was finished, I became 240 a citizen among you, citizens— now I proclaim to all the men of Thebes: who so among you knows the murderer by whose hand Laius, son of Labdacus, died—I command him to tell everything 245 to me,– yes. However, he fears himself taking the blame. (4) This passage talks about how the King of Thebes tries to get rid of the evil of Thebes. “I Proclaim to all the men of Thebes who so among you knows the murderer by whose hand Laius, son of Labdacus, died” I believe in this passage, he is informing this person, Fighting with Oedipus will bring you great powers of strength and things will be easier to handle    

“I am stretched on the rack of doubt, and terror and trembling hold my heart, O Delian Healer, and I worship full of fears for what doom you will bring to pass, new or renewed in the revolving years. Speak to me, immortal voice, child of golden Hope” (Grene, 3 182-188). This is passage is from the very beginning of the play. The chorus represents the citizens, the average onlookers, who aren’t playing a major role, just only able to watch. So right now, they are very anxious, stressed, and filled with overwhelming fear because their home is in ruins and there is nothing they can do about it but watch. In this passage, they show their fear through their creative language. The chorus describes how their fear “holds my heart”. This language allows the listener to see how these feelings are taking over their whole being. How they are all consumed in their fear. The chorus is also showing their faith in this verse. Even though they are scared, they still are praying. They refer to Apollo, by calling him the “Delian Healer” and the “child of Golden Hope”. Showing how he is their savior, their end to this suffering, much like the raising sun is to the night.

Section 4. Lines 963-967:   “Pride breeds the tyrant violent pride, gorging, crammed to bursting with all that is overripe and rich with ruin—clawing up to the heights, headlong pride crashes down the abyss—sheer doom!”   This conversation on the outcomes of pleasure happens when Oedipus is rapidly discovering extra small print about his two-edged curse and does no longer quit making an attempt to locate the truth, notwithstanding pleas from Jocasta. The sentiment of delight being Oedipus’s downfall is one that is repeated at some point in the play, with Tiresias being the first to point out it. Oedipus is a proud man, he is praised as the King of Thebes and the defeater of the Sphinx, however, it is his pride, his very own trust that he is a proper man who is liked by the gods, that leads him to unravel this very belief. In his strive to discover the historic proof to show he liked the gods, he solely proves to himself and those around him that he suffers from a merciless fate.   Section 5. Lines 1188-1190:   “I count myself the son of Chance, the great goddess, giver of all good things—I’ll never see myself disgraced”   These lines are spoken using Oedipus earlier than he is conscious that the prophecy he tried to keep away from has come true. However, this quote is simply as authentic as the end of the play, the place Oedipus is aware of and accepts his horrible fate. In Greek mythology, Fortune is the goddess of destiny and she is depicted as veiled, as to be impartial to those to whom she was once distributing suitable or terrible luck. In the state of affairs in which he says this line, Oedipus is dealing with the newfound truth that […]

Oedipus  the king is quite the interesting read with a lot of double meanings and nuances the part of the passage I picked is What is the sweet spoken word of God from the shrine of Pytho rich in gold War God ringed with the cries of men, a savage God who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backwards out of our country’s bounds to the great palace of Amphitrite19 or where the waves of the Thracian sea 215 deny the stranger safe anchorage. Whatsoever escapes the night at last the light of day revisits; so smite the War God, Father Zeus, beneath your thunderbolt, 220 for you are the Lord of the lightning, the lightning that carries fire. This is said shortly after Oedipus talks about the previous king that was murdered and promises that he would not have the same fate as for the chorus I believe they’re trying to be optimistic somewhat and have a good outlook by saying that anyone that is trying to turn the country backwards or is trying to set it back will be taken care of by their god (Zeus) by first denying the stranger any safe anchorage to make it harder for them to get in. They even go onto to say that whatever ends up getting through at night time will pop up when the day comes and that Zeus will take care of the war god by striking them. I think that the stranger they are talking about is a metaphor for war and anyone that is trying to hurt their new king and trying to turn their country into a less stable more chaotic place and that they have full faith in Zeus to take care of it which is why I believe it has […]

545 the doer of deeds that none dare name? Now is the time for him to run with a stronger foot than Pegasus for the child of Zeus leaps in arms upon him 550 with fire and the lightning bolt, and terribly close on his heels are the Fates that never miss. This passage in “Oedipus the King” happens right after the citizens hear Teiresias talk about how he has knowledge on who killed the previous king and Oedipus tells him to share the knowledge. Teiresias refuses to tell Oedipus what he knows despite the fact that Teiresias was called here by Oedipus and they start arguing until Teiresias leaves. Since the citizens hear about it but do not know who it is they start talking about whoever it is and how they should run away instantly. They say that the killer needs to have,” a stronger foot than Pegasus.” and yet they also say that,” the Fates that never miss.” which could indicate how the citizens think that even if the killer is faster than a mythical creature it would not matter, as in the end they will get what they deserve as indicated by what the three fate sisters see.

580 but amongst men there is no distinct judgment, between the prophetand me—which of us is right. One man may pass another in wisdom but I would never agree 585 with those that find fault with the king till I should see the word proved right beyond doubt. For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us 590 saw his wisdom and in that test he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind. I chose this passage because it shows how they praised the king and I feel like they see him as this great man. You can see that also in the beginning the priest along with the children came to beg him for help. They are suffering and say he is their savior as he saved the city once. The old men said that “One man may pass another in wisdom”, but they will never defy and doubt the king. They need to actually see evidence of the faults in the king before condemning him. It is like Innocent until proven guilty. They are united and will stand by the king. I think we can see the old men are very loyal to the king Oedipus. It shows that they are tight knit, and they are supportive of the King Oeidupus. I think that is what is needed to have someone that has your back.

“it is not right to think good men, without reason, bad or bad men good.” (Line 609) “time alone can make it clear a man is just while you can know a traitor in a day.” (Line 613) In “Oedipus the King,” I chose the scene which describes my feelings of unfairness for me.  I have selected the scene where Oedipus accuses Creon of conspiracy because he betrayed him. In the scene, Creon asks the elders what was said about him, for he is concerned about the rumours that have started spreading. He claims that he has never caused any harm to Oedipus that he knows of, and asks why this accusation was directed at him. As Oedipus enters, he asks Creon how he could come there and accuses him of trying to steal the crown and of murdering Laios. Furthermore, he questions why Tiresias didn’t come forward at the time of the murder and says that he refuses to be convicted of murder. Oedipus is free to judge him, Creon says, but not without some proof, as it is “not right to think good men, without reason, bad or bad men good.” Creon believes it takes time to judge for: “time alone can make it clear a man is just while you can know a traitor in a day.” Creon, her brother, swears on his death that he has done nothing of what Oedipus has charged him of. At the same time, the elders agree, asking Oedipus to calm down and believe Creon, for they do not believe he is a fool.  We can say that Creon simply defends himself against Oedipus’s accusation by saying that Oedipus is not wise by being stubborn and forgetting common sense.

“25 out of the depths, out of the bloody surf. A blight is on the fruitful plants of the earth. A blight is on the cattle in the fields, a blight is on our women that no children are born to them; a God that carries fire, ” This whole passage speaks of death and the toll that the city’s citizens are facing. They had come to Oedipus hoping for help. The belief in their gods that they would be saved was something that they had sincerely believed in because everyone loved Oedipue so much that they had no doubts about him and they saw him as a great leader. A focal point in the play is finding out who killed the king before Oedipus his late father. When he comes and finds out that he was the one that had killed his own father and married his mother he is appalled. As the plague that is affecting his entire kingdom is caused by himself. I chose this passage because it exemplifies exactly what he is causing to his own people. Blight is a rapid spread of disease. That word alone tells me that the people of Oedipus is suffering and they are looking for his help, showing their undying loyalty to him.

those children that are born lie dead on the naked earth unpitied, spreading contagion of death; and gray-haired mothers and wives everywhere stand at the altar’s edge, suppliant, moaning; the hymn to the healing God15 rings out but with it the wailing voices are blended. From these our sufferings grant us, O golden Daughter of Zeus,16 210 glad-faced deliverance. In the play, it speaks of a disaster that they face with many babies dying and everything is just kind of dead, “spreading contagion of death…” everyone is just kind of sick and they are praying and giving offerings to the gods to help them through this time. I chose this quote because it shows what the people are going through and it paints a picture of how bad it was that they were turning towards the gods for help. It shows that through the suffering they all gathered at the altar to ask for blessings from Athena, “golden daughter of Zeus” to help stop the god of war, Ares as they think it is him that “…burns us” They attributed their suffering to Ares and want the other gods such as Zeus and Athena to help them. 

Oedipus cared about power and dominance, not the people or Thebes. To kill the previous king for his own benefit of becoming king is one thing, but to then scout for the kings killer whilst knowing it is him who had done it is treacherous. The chorus was blinded by Oedipus’s hero image, that he conquered the Sphinx’s riddle. When Oedipus seeks for the priests and prophet’s help, he is boastful, but still seeking for an answer he already knows. He speaks of his own power he has gained, but praising the knowledge and profession the priest and prophet has. The prophet, Teiresias, and Oedipus had an intense conversation. Teiresias tried his best to keep quiet and not speak of what Oedipus already knows, but Oedipus started to put the blame on Teiresias and belittling his profession. That made Teiresias speak his truth, more than he had to, revealing that he knows Oedipus killed the previous king, Laius, and that his marriage to Jocasta is of sin. Oedipus and Creon are now rivals, Oedipus thinks Creon spoke ill of him to the Teiresias to make him say the things he said. He wants Creon dead and out of sight. He doesn’t want Creon to have an ounce of power or leadership in Thebes. Oedipus is focused on ruling that he would lose the friendship of the man that handed over his wife, he is willing to belittle and gaslight the higher entities that he asks for help, just so he can cover his tracks.  

“195 Our sorrows defy number; all the ship’s timbers are rotten; taking of thought is no spear for the driving away of the plague. There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth. 200 You may see them one with another, like birds swift on the wing, quicker than fire unmastered, speeding away to the coast of the Western God.” In this passage the chorus is crying for help and expressing the devastating condition the city is in. They are saying: “all the ship’s timbers are rotten, taking of thought is no spear for the driving away of the plague.” This is a very powerful visualization where we can imagine how things are deteriorating while no actions are being taking to get the justice the citizens are seeking. The mood is very dark and hopeless, there is no new life and aspiration. The chorus is comparing the women of the land to birds who are swift on the wing: ”speeding away to the coast of the Western God.” They are not bearing children and are being taken by the god of death.

I felt that this play was very interesting because of the Monarchy and how the citizens loved Oedipus. This is because, from my past reading and history in general, people have always wanted to overthrow the King, and they did everything in their power to do so. Oedipus was a king that was loved by the people in Thebes. They wanted him to find the Laisos’ murderer. It seemed that the people trusted him dearly with huge actions and they believed in what he said. He was very defensive and stood his ground with Teiresias. He was being taunted and started to get angry. I feel that he was worried about how he looked during this encounter. I wonder if there is a real reason behind Creon using Oedipus’ weakness against that. I found that very disrespectful and today I feel that people use a person’s weakness and insecurity to power over them. I think that he was jealous and envious of what he had. I felt that Oedipus was kind and always willing to help the people in the city but I felt that he looked into Social Validation too much and he had a very boosted ego. In Lines 255-264, he takes initiative in what he thinks will help the people in the city.

In Oedipus the King, the Chorus functions as the collective voice of the citizens of Thebes. The chorus’s role is also to reflect the feelings of the audience and the citizens of Thebes and to interpret what is happening on the stage. In this week’s reading part, we see that the chorus is also serves as the king’s adviser when they suggest he call Teiresias. Oedipus is trying to find out who murdered the last king, Laius, and the chorus tells him that Teiresias sees things similar to the way Lord Apollo used to see and that he could help him find who killed the king; “I know that what the Lord Teiresias sees, is most often what Lord Apollo sees. If you should inquire of this from him you might find out most clearly” (Line 305). We can also see how the chorus is loyal to their king and won’t say anything bad about him, after he saved them. “Truly Zeus and Apollo are wise and in human things all knowing; but amongst men there is no distinct judgment, between the prophetand me—which of us is right. One man may pass another in wisdom but I would never agree with those that find fault with the king till I should see the word proved right beyond doubt. For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us saw his wisdom and in that test he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind” (Line 578). Teiresias blames Oedipus for killing king Laius, and although the chorus said before that he sees things clearly, in other words – that they trust his prophecies, they stand by Oedipus, their current king, until a clear proof would say else.

“580 Amongst men there is no distinct judgement, between the prophetand me—which of us is right. One man may pass another in wisdom but I would never agree 585 with those that find fault with the king till I should see the word proved right beyond doubt.” I choose this passage because it really demonstrates the chorus loyalty to the king even though they realize teiresias has more wisdom than him. It also exhibits how their rationality far exceeds their loyalty which is impressive because you would expect more bias towards a king, however at the same time that strong loyalty for the king makes them slightly indecisive not because he’s simply the king but owing to the fact that they experienced first hand how the king wisdom has saved the city in the past as shown in line 588-590 “For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us 590 saw his wisdom and in that test he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind”.  

“560 He is sad and lonely, his feet that carry him far from the navel of earth;39 but its prophecies, ever living, flutter around his head. Strophe The augur40 has spread confusion, 565 terrible confusion; I do not approve what was said nor can I deny it. I do not know what to say; I am in a flutter of foreboding; 570 I never heard in the present nor past of a quarrel between the sons of Labdacus and Polybus, that I might bring as proof in attacking the popular fame 575 of Oedipus, seeking to take vengeance for undiscovered death in the line of Labdacus.”   I selected this passage from Odeipus the King because you truly feel the Chorus’ shock to the situation. The elders are confused and perplexed by the information Teiresias delivers. They don’t know what to believe. “The augur40 has spread confusion, 565 terrible confusion; I do not approve what was said nor can I deny it.” The Chorus want to remain loyal to their King but they are able to remain logical because they want to see the proof if it’s actually true. They handle the situation in such a logical way. They want vengeance to whoever is responsible for the killing of Laius. Oedpius is just as angry and confused about the information. In the passages just before this Odepius is getting angry with Teiresias but the prophet is just there to deliver the news, he means no harm but only wants for Odepius to see the irony of how he is blind to his actions. And although the prophet is blind he can see the truth. I was just as perplexed while reading the beginning of Odepius the King and can appreciate the art of Greek tragedies.

LINES 813-836 JOCASTA: Do not concern yourself about this matter; listen to me and learn that human beings 815 have no part in the craft of prophecy. Of that I’ll show you a short proof. There was an oracle once that came to Laius, — I will not say that it was Phoebus’ own, but it was from his servants— and it told him 820 that it was fate that he should die a victim at the hands of his own son, a son to be born of Laius and me. But, see now, he, the king, was killed by foreign highway robbers at a place where three roads meet—so goes the story; 825 and for the son—before three days were out after his birth King Laius pierced his ankles and by the hands of others cast him forth upon a pathless hillside. So Apollo failed to fulfill his oracle to the son, 830 that he should kill his father, and to Laius also proved false in that the thing he feared, death at his son’s hands, never came to pass. So clear in this case were the oracles, so clear and false. Give them no heed, I say; 835 what God discovers need of, easily he shows to us himself. In this passage, Jocasta informs the new king, Oedipus, about an oracle who told the old king Laius that it was “Fate” that he would die by his own son. But this Oracle was not true because the king’s death was by highway robbers. He informs the new King Oedipus to show him an example and to not be feared because he had his own beliefs. He believed that whatever God has planned, “he shows to us himself”(836). Furthermore, he tells this story to him because he and King […]

“for the contrivance34 of an envied life!445 Great store of jealousy fill your treasury chests, if my friend Creon, friend from this and loyal, thus secretly attacks me, secretly desires to drive me out and secretly suborns35 this juggling trick devising quack, 450 this wily beggar who has only eyes” I feel like this passage best portrays Oedipus’s insecurities after he sought out to become king by any means necessary. This is an excerpt from a conversation between Oedipus and Teiresias. Teiresias is wise to the fact that Oedipus is too emotionally immature and undeserving of this new status. A little into the conversation, Oedipus brings up his friend, Creon, out of nowhere in a fit of paranoia. I interpreted line 445 literally and I enjoyed the imagery of the jealousy store, i think it’s kind of funny. To think that someone (sane) would be jealous of his power and how he got to that point is pretty laughable as well. It goes well with his wildly ignorant character, along with all the hypocrisy.

“This is a terrible sight for men to see! I never found a worse! 1490 Poor wretch, what madness came upon you! What evil spirit leaped upon your life to your ill-luck—a leap beyond man’s strength! Indeed I pity you, but I cannot look at you, though there’s much I want to ask 1495 and much to learn and much to see. I shudder at the sight of you.”  I interpreted this quote as religious karmic payback. Combining the dynamic between Oedipus and Jocasta and Oedipus and Laius, all the morally questionable actions that happened throughout the play make it so that the life choices he made came back to bite him in the ass. In line 1493, “ill-luck” is very important to how like dominoes action after action is karmic. In exchange for these poor actions, they had to give up something to balance it out. For Oedipus, his father’s killing being unintentional makes everything more impactful. Even in lines 1493 through 1496, the chorus can’t look at him but are intrigued at how he got to this point. I think it’s a double meaning one for his sins and the other for his appearance with the gouged-out eyes, doing so with Jocasta’s own dress pins. He is a tragic hero, being the King of Thebes and having many flaws. Overall, the quotes from the chorus shame Oedipus not only for his crimes of incest and murder but also for his attempt to escape the reality he created, gouging his eyes out in shame and disgust at his own actions.

In this weeks reading  “Oedipus the King” the passage I chose to analyze is “A blight is on the fruitful plants of the earth.” (Line 28), “A blight is on the cattle in the fields,” (Line 29), and “A blight is on our women that no children.” (Line 30). The reason I chose to analyze this passage is because the priest is claiming a disease if on the plants on the earth, a disease is on the cattle, and a disease is on the women that cannot bare children. I believe the priest is saying they’re being punished for something and they’re asking the god to help them. The priest is asking for his city to be lifted and saved. He called himself and everyone else “mortals” he also mentioned only the greek god Oedipus can help them through this situation. The priest feels as though since Oedipus saved the land they call him their savior so he must help them.

“O generations of men, how I 1370 count you as equal with those who live not at all! What man, What man on earth wins more of happiness than a seeming and after that turning away? 1375 Oedipus, you are my pattern of this, Oedipus, you and your fate! Luckless Oedipus, whom of all men I envy not at all.” –   What I gathered from this reading is Oedipus, the king of Thebes, was watching his people suffer from some kind of curse or plague brought upon by the murder of a King.  Oedipus discovered that not only was it him who murdered the king but, the king was his biological father and Oedipus’ wife was his mother and this misdeed was the cause of the curse in Thebes.  In the beginning of the play, Oedipus arrogantly proclaimed his status among his people as ” Great” he spoke of his people almost like beggers and he seemed to pity them.  After being made aware of all the unfortunate events that were surrounding him and how he made it to be king, he stated that had he not survived in the wild after being abandoned, all of the humiliation and punishment of his people could have been avoided.  Although seemingly inexorable, the chrous describes him as luckless and even the only man they could not envy.  Oedipus couldn’t see the truth and his blindness was what plagued them.

The story Oedipus the King is truly interesting. It was clear that Oedipus didn’t realize how his treachery put his own town into shambles. Creon knew Oedipus character and used his weakness against him with Teiresias pretty much exposing him. I feel like this left Oedipus confused because, how can they know such a secret? Creon had a motive to blackmail him and it it is working, because the anger Oedipus is displaying is not good to show from a King. The saddest part of what was read so far is how the town is suffering because of his actions (the secret). The Chorus from lines 185-210 explains how much they are suffering. They are begging for answers from God to understand why they are going through such demise. In line 195 it is stated that “there are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth”. Line 205 also elaborates more on what is happening on the land, and the people are calling out for deliverance.

Well Oedipus the king was a play and an example of the great Greek tragedies. The play was interesting to read because I’ve never read anything like this, to me it contains great imagery which is relevant today. Oedipus was a good king who was loved by the people, they also wanted him to find the murderer of Laios  and to left the plagues that’s destroying the city. Oedipus was running away from his fate that was told by his oracle Delphi and he was doing everything to avoid it. Killing his father and marrying his mother was told by the oracle, but it was tragedy when his mom hanged herself because people knew about it.