CCO
What specific observations in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story strike you as insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, or the poem “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton?
Warning: Comments that maintain that “Snow White” is just a simple tale for children that should not be overanalyzed will not receive credit.
98 thoughts on “Week 13 Discussion”
Reading the Snow White analysis written by Bruno Bettleheim was interesting because of the connection he made with Snow White’s double nature, as one of purity but also sexuality, Within both “Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” both characters represent purity but also struggle with their maturity and sexual desire, however under different circumstances. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Connie is a young woman that believes she is mature enough to dabble in romance and often presents herself as an object of desire. However, Connie is still naive and is easily fooled by how situations or people appear to be, she’s still innocent in that aspect. In Snow White, she doesn’t present herself as an object of desire but others place that title upon her. Snow White is still immature, however the dwarfs guided her and offered their wisdom even if she ignored it. In both stories, the young women struggle to become more mature however, Snow White has the opportunity to become a young woman while it is implied that it was stolen from Connie. Snow White went through various trials and had the opportunity to reflect while Connie had no guidance and was led astray.
Serafina, thanks for starting things over this week. I appreciate your comments about how Bettleheim notes Snow White’s dual nature using color symbolism: white for purity and red for sexuality. This ties in so well with the dual nature of Connie that we see in the Oates story, as well as the dual nature of other characters in that story. It is true that if both stories are views as coming-of-age narratives, it is only Snow White who gets to enjoy the fruits of her experience.
I agree with Serafina, about the difference that both young characters in “Where are you going?” and in “Snow White” had to go through, without them having knowledge about it, aka are innocent of what’s going around them. The main thing that Connie didn’t have that snow white had was someone that can guide her and help her out with her decisions in her life when on the other hand Snow White had the dwarfs to tell her what to do especially when she by herself.
Seraphina, I like all of the main points that you brought, the “double nature” as you called, also mentioning the few interpretations of Bettleheim, to purity and sexuality. Seraphina you did a great job at showing the different personalities of Connie and Snow white. Connie, “presents herself as an object of desire.” and snow white, “, she doesn’t present herself as an object of desire but others place that title upon her.” This reminds me of few women that I had meet in the past, there were always one that was smarter and knew her self value, and there were another who always sought attention, I guess using that comparison somehow the personalities of the stories connects with some personalities of people in real life. Your ending sentence was really well done, Snow white did had the opportunity to make errors and to grow, contrary to Connie that was as you say, “ stolen from” her, I believe that maybe if those thing wouldn’t had happened to Connie, maybe she would of had a more similar story of that of snow white. In a same way snow white would of had similar story of that of Connie if she didn’t survive all of those killing attempts and or found someone to teach her as the dwarfs did.
Serafina I like how you nailed the comparisons between Snow White and Connie. Both characters are under going maturity and sexual desires. You made an excellent point how Snow White had many opportunity to learn meanwhile poor Connie didn’t have that same opportunity.
Serafina, Snow White’s double nature, as one of purity but also sexuality, is an interesting observation. I tied this idea of sexuality, and purity into the Little Snow White story when I realized a deeper meaning into the Evil Queen’s motives. She was a spiteful and envious person probably afflicted by the abyss of vanity. I came to understand just how much of an emphasis there was during those times when this story was made of girls Virginity’s or “purity” and their appearances. Looking back a favorite Disney movie of mine, Snow White, which had its sweeter and nicer morals, and learning this has made me realize the origin of this story roots as quite disturbing.
Serafina, I 100% agree with your comments of her dual nature as Professor Conway stated as well with white symbolizing purity and red for sexuality. They both went through things as we read but it one was able to reflect upon occurrences while the other didn’t.
Bettleheim’s analysis mentions that “just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood”. It’s very interesting that all of these readings hold one concept in mind and that is young, beautiful and innocent women who lead themselves into danger because of a lack of experience in knowledge and emotions. Predators or people who can see that they lack these things will take advantage of these young women. It is clear to see that Snow White and Connie are both young women who are misguided due to their parents’ insecurities. Both women are hated or disliked for their looks and because of that they seek acceptance from outsiders. We see that Connie and Snow White grow these striking and eye-candy features physically but they are lacking in their levels of maturity based on the decisions they make. Snow White runs off into the forest where she sought comfort in stranger dwarfs who used her as a maid and because she had no where to go, she abided. Even after facing death so many times, she then ran off into the arms of a prince she barely knew. The prince only saw her for her looks, not how she processed things emotionally and intellectually. Connie also faced the same experience with Arnold. She had spent most of her young teenage life being put down by her mother and it caused her to drift off into a man’s arms that clearly meant her harm. So we see how Bettleheim’s analysis of how being physically matured can be detrimental to a person’s wellbeing if they don’t have their intellect and emotions at a point of understanding and maturity.
Regina, I like where you said “The prince only saw her for her looks, not how she processed things emotionally and intellectually.” As this was not something I had even thought of originally. For me, the period of time where snow white was in her coffin symbolized a period of retrospection where she would ultimately learn never to make the mistake she had made before which was letting her stepmother in. I saw her running away with the prince as a new period in her life where she would be physically, mentally and emotionally mature. However now, after reading what you’d said, I can see how her just running off with a random prince who only saw her for her looks was just another display of immaturity and naivety.
Regina, I really enjoy the quote you used to start of your response. The idea of physical maturity vs emotional maturity is a big deal. In both of these stories they are forced to come to terms with their own bodies from lack of wisdom and advice from the people around them. So much so, that snow-white had to get it from 7 people who, from bottelheims view, had never truly emotionally matured either.
Hey Regina, I agree with your point on how both young women experience neglect at the hands of their parents, ultimately causing them to seek validation from outsiders and making them susceptible to predators. For both stories, the young women within them believe they are physically and mentally mature for their age but are put in situations that test their awareness and maturity. It is interesting to see the similarities both the characters share because both stories act as cautionary tales for young women, especially “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”.
Regina, I agree with you on the fact that predators take advantage of the vulnerable and inexperience. Both Snow White and Connie are young and do not have the knowledge about the dangers that lies beyond their homes. Connie is not acting mature and thinks she knows it all because she is trading on her beauty and eventually finds herself in a an adult situation which se is not ready for. As you mentioned Connie’s action is due to her parents who does not prepare her for the real world. Snow White is consumed too by appearance and this caused death upon her many times. Young mind needs guidance and Bettelheim analysis on being physically mature without the proper guidance and knowledge can lead one on a dangerous path.
Hi Regina, I agree that “Connie and Snow White grow these striking and eye-candy features physically but they are lacking in their levels of maturity based on the decisions they make.” Connie works hard to prove her maturity, but despite her efforts, she’s not as mature as she would like to believe. She desperately wants to be attractive to older men, but as soon as an older man Arnold, really gives her explicit attention, she is horrified. She knows little about reality and what adulthood actually entails. When Arnold appears at her house, she tries to appear controlling, but is eventually defeated and he defeats her. Snow White also made decisions that did not lead to anything good. As Bettleheim writes, “Considerable growth and time are needed before the new, more mature personality is formed and the old conflicts are integrated. Only then is one ready for a partner of the other sex, and the intimate relation with him which is needed for the achievement of mature adulthood.”
Regina I completely agree with what you had to say. It is very true that majority of the readings we have if not all share the same concept where young young get themselves into situations that can not get out of because they lack the knowledge or they ignored the warning signs. The quote you stated relates to Snow White because here we have a young women who grew up and she was recognized for her beauty but she was still a child and had to mature as a result of her lack of maturity and real world knowledge she trusted a random old woman who offered her an apple and was then poisoned and she then trusted the seven dwarfs and went to live with them and like you said they basically were using her as a maid.
Regina, I agree with you. Both Connie and Snow White were easy targets because of their ingenuity and the people looking to cause them harm was aware of that to an extend. The antagonists of the story used disguises to cover up their true persona because they knew that emotional and young teens were going to fall for the disguises due to the desire for discovery and adventure.
Hey Regina, I think the idea of reaching physical maturity but not reaching the point of being ready for adulthood is very interesting. From the “Little Snow White”, I can see this when the evil queen becomes envious of snow. I thought it was crazy that practically a grown woman is envious of a 7year old just because a mirror says she’s the prettiest. Snow isn’t there with maturity either for the simple fact of when she stayed with the Dwarves, she was told countless times not to let anyone in and she kept doing it. She is not as mentally mature as her physical looks.
ENG 201 Sec. 0527
Regina, your observation on the villains within the story is very astute. In your post you stated that, “Predators or people who can see that they lack these things will take advantage of these young women.” This points out a very specific trait common in many of the villains we have read about in these past weeks. Your correlations point out to the “reality” of the tale. If one was to deconstruct the fantasy elements in the fairy tale “Snow White”, all that would be left is one devious reality. It is that reality of truth that brings fear to the readers that understand the message of the tale.
Within the latter part of your post you emphasized all the vulnerabilities these young women have that would increase the likelihood of them becoming victims to a “predator”. These comparisons couldn’t be more true. I noticed these vulnerabilities as well and I tried to imagine if I was in the protagonist’s shoes with the experience they had and it felt very real. As children growing into adults people exhibit extensive levels of curiosity and adventure, even when it comes to the nurturing of a child as a parent, one can only imagine how much effort it takes just to enforce wise behaviors with their children. Perhaps fairy tales were one of the constructive options in doing so. In Bettelheim’s analysis he states, “When a child tries to understand himself and others, or figure out what the specific consequences of some action might be, he spins fantasies around these issues. It is his way of “playing with Ideas.” I think even though the knowledgeable reader understands the scenarios due to personal experiences, the characters had to make these errors in the story so that the inexperienced reader can relate to the message and create synapses with the knowledge they have gained so far.
Bettleheims analysis makes the important point that “Just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood.” This applies to the story of Snow White as well as Connie from the story ‘Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?’ For both Snow White and Connie, the mother figures in their lives express jealousy of them as they begin to mature into young women. However, it is made very clear in both stories that while they are physically mature, they are incredibly naive and not prepared for adulthood. Snow White goes through a period of metamorphosis during the time she spends with the dwarfs which is symbolic of her adolescence. She spends this time learning to cook, clean and do housework however she makes mistakes along the way, like teens do. Her judgement during this crucial time in her life is clouded by juvenile grievances (her appearance.) The same can be said for Connie, while her story is not entirely the same as Snow’s, there is an undeniable parallel between the two. Connie does not have the luxury Snow had and instead of going through a period of metamorphosis, she spends most of her time trying to grow up too fast. We see throughout the story especially towards the end when the strange man appeared at her house to lure her in, Connie is painfully naive. As the reader, In both instances when Connie and Snow put themselves in harms way, you become sympathetic. Both tales are prime examples of how physical maturity does not equal intellectual or emotional maturity.
Hi Miranda! I completely agree that physical maturity doesn’t equal to intellectual or emotional maturity. It is truly sad that stuff like this still occurs today because young children don’t have the resources needed to be educated on important topics needed to help them succeed in life and be safe from predators. Snow and Connie didn’t have those resources and that led them to putting themselves in harms way. The fact that their mothers were jealous of them played a huge part. Mother and daughter relationships can be difficult but it is something that many people cherish due to it helping them get through life but Connie and Snow never experienced a true bond with their mothers just hate and jealousy. Getting that feeling from someone that is supposed to be there and help you through things can mentally mess you up and make you feel that you need to do everything on your own.
Miranda, your comments are all well taken, but I encourage everyone to choose a different quote than what others have already discussed so as to avoid repetition and expand the conversation. The Bettelheim article is very rich in ideas, and Regina has already discussed this point very well. Thanks!
Miranda I agree that physical maturity does not mean much when compared to intellectual or emotional maturity or even real world knowledge. In both stories both of these young girls were physically mature. Everything that happened to Snow White is based on the fact that she was physically mature but intellectual she was still a child. Snow White was only 13 years old she had just became and teenage but she looked more mature then her age her beauty got her recognized by many and hated by her mother. Snow White lack of emotional lead to her trusting anyone and everyone, she met the seven dwarfs in the woods and trusted them immediately and moved in with them. Reading that now may thoughts are “is she crazy” she is a 13 year old who moved in with seven grown men and she just thought that was okay that situation could have possibly ended in a much worse way. For these reasons I agree with you that physical maturity does no match up to emotional or intellectual maturity.
Hi Miranda, I agree with you. Just as you said, although Snow White and Connie are physically mature, they are mentally immature. I think part of the reason for this is the family relations and education. Connie was blinded by the tense relationship with her mother and the desire to prove herself, while Snow White did not have a normal job or education because of her noble life. It is their intellectual and emotional immaturity that puts them in dangerous situations.
In Bettelheim’s analysis, he states that “Narcissism is very much part of the young child’s make-up. The child must gradually learn to transcend this dangerous form of self-involvement. The story of Snow White warns of the evil consequences of narcissism for both parent and child. Snow White’s narcissism nearly undoes her as she gives in twice to the disguised queen’s enticements to make her look more beautiful, while the queen is destroyed by her own narcissism” (203). He suggests the child often shares the same narcissistic tendencies as the parent, insinuating to a common struggle upon their growing maturity. In the story “Little Snow White”, we can see that Snow White was fooled three times by her evil stepmother who tries to kill her because of her beauty. Luckily, she was able to survive all three attempts because she had the dwarfs’ protection. But Connie was not so lucky because she did not have any parental guidance. Bettelheim explains also that these trials represent the temptation to be sexually attractive, as Snow White cannot help but want as her body begins to mature. As for Connie, she convinces herself that she does not need to worry. She knows that she’s pretty, and because that is the most important quality that she possesses, she convinces herself that she is superior to others. This causes her narcissistic attributes to be on full display. By talking more about herself, Connie tries to overcome her anxious feelings. We can conclude that “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been” emphasizes life experiences and interactions with other people besides the self.
Fatu, thanks for this interesting post. Yes, the idea of narcissism runs through both stories, and Bettleheim stresses the importance of developing beyond this self-focused phase. The Sexton poem suggests that Snow White, in fact, does not transcend her narcissism, and in the end has become exactly like the queen as she gazes at herself in the mirror. The poem looks at the story in a very different way, commenting on the unhealthy emphasis on and objectification of feminine beauty that still persists.
Gary, I agree that Narcissism is a big part of the storied given to us. It is a different way of story telling then what is usually narrated. And I do also agree on your comments on children having the same narcissistic tendencies as their parents as a way to back up your comment because we do see it start a struggle within maturing
Bettleheim’s analysis of snow white draws several parallels between “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”. The issues that arise from family, specifically mother and daughter, are on full display. In both stories, a pretty young women is chastised and accosted by her aging and jealous mother. In snow white, her adolescence in her undoing. As a child, bettelheim states, she does not have the burden of knowing her step-mother is evil, but in her growth comes the knowledge of self and what is happening to herself because of her appearance. The trials the queen subjects snow-white to are what allow her to become mature and she can see the world for what it is. As for Connie, her mother also, in a way subjects her to trails, as well. Connie is well within ear shot for the phone conversations that her mother has, where she berates her daughter for not being as her sister is. Connie sees her sister as a mature woman, so she emulates that the only way she would know how, as to gain the admiration of her mother. Snow white seems to pass all 4 trials in the end given to her by her mother, as Connie seems to fail the last, being left to her own devices, and is barred from entering real maturity.
Eli, yes, thanks for the good observations. The parallels in the mother-daughter relationship in the two stories are very striking and show the unhealthy results when a parent has not matured and developed beyond the infantile state of narcissism. You’re so right that it is only natural that Connie would become like this herself. The Anne Sexton poem, which takes a feminist approach to the fairy tale, also suggests that Snow White has not developed at all and is locked in a stunted phase of narcissism.
Great take Elif, I didn’t think to make parallels between the mother between the 2 stories. Also, the way you mention that Connie ultimately failed to reach the 4th trail (that being maturity) was also very interesting to read and ultimately adds more darkness to that story as a whole. In addition, I absolutely agree with you on the other connection you made as well, mainly with the way both characters show signs of self-awareness on how their beauty impacts others around them.
You made an interesting distinction between the two stories Elif, because it is true that both girls are chastised by their mothers because of their appearance and I also agree that Snow White’s character was able to become more mature over time and because of all the trials she had to face whereas Connie’s personality was a little more naive as she did not have much experience in the world so it’s understandable how she became trapped in that situation.
Elif,
I would like to emphasize about what you just stated ,which is the Queen develops a merciless hatred for Snow White when the child begins to come of age and threatens her sexuality and beauty in competition, then she tries unsuccessfully by every means to kill her .That goes the same with Connie where her mother is always talking down to her and always reminding her that her sister is better than her. Her mother’s interest ends with her petty and jealous criticisms.
A specific observation in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story that strike me as insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, is when he describes the coming of age, in one part he brings the Freud’s 5 stages of Psychosexual development, it strikes me to hear about it again because it was something I learned about in my AP Psychology class during high school. In the “Short – lecture” it is mention that that the story of Joyce Carol Oates, “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” has been characterized as “”a fairy tale gone wrong.” which is something that strike me as well, since I never thought of Connie story as a fairy tale. I had the idea of it been a normal story like many others but comparing it to a fairy tale does bring an interesting point/view. We can assume that as it was mention in the “short – lecture” that, “Connie is never given the opportunity to reflect and grow into adulthood as Snow White does.” in this case the protagonist fail to develop thorough the story, the side characters don’t bring a lesson or help her to be better. We can also add that in this story there is no prince to save her as in “Snow white” Connie got the contrary of it and there was no happy ending in this supposedly fairy tale. No happy endings in fairy tales are unusual, it’s not often to hear a fairy tale in which the protagonist got such a horrible ending as Connie did, is more often to hear that she marries a handsome prince that solve all of her problems as snow white. I guess that comparing both story and the generalization of fairy tale we can assume that Connie story is “a fairy tale gone wrong” and that it goes completely different of that of snow white, which is kid friendly with the happy ending we are all familiarized with.
I have to mention that the warning at the bottom of today discussion was a little scary to me because I have a detective mind by default, so analyzing everything is kind of my thing. I hope that, I didn’t do it this time.
Jon, your comments most definitely do not fall into the “let’s not overanalyze the story” category. In fact, I love when students refer to other classes, such as your AP Psychology class in high school, because it shows the connections between literature and other disciplines. Bettleheim, as you note, has a Freudian orientation, which some people may not relate to. Nonetheless, phases of human development are quite observable, I think, and are shown symbolically in “Little Snow White.” Thanks for a good post!
In both “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”, readers are presented with a young girl of innocence and naiveness. The young girls in both stories struggle with maturing and their sexuality. Bettleheim’s psychological analysis further explained the reasonings behind their struggles. In the analysis he states, “…the position of the child within the family becomes a problem to him or to his parents, the process of the child’s struggle to escape the triadic existence has begun. With it, he enters the often desperately lonely course to find himself…” (Bettleheim 201) This illustrates how the relationship of the young girls and their parents affects them. Connie in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” doesn’t have a strong bond with her parents which leads to them not caring or worrying about her whereabouts and for Snow in “Little Snow White” her father wasn’t heard from and doesn’t try to protect her from her stepmother trying to kill her due to her jealousy. These relationships pushed them both to be alone in dealing with their problems and trying to find themselves by exploring their sexuality and maturing. They both were concerned about looking beautiful but in the process were taken advantage of. They were put in danger because of them being focused on being a certain way and being naive. It is interesting to have a deeper understanding of the poor decisions made by Connie and Snow. Their relationships with their parents are related to their poor decisions and it makes you feel sympathy towards them. They didn’t have access to a person to educate them and prepare them for the worst in life.
Sheilaya, I agree with your comments that these young girls in both stories struggles with maturing. This struggle comes about because of their parents lack of support and protection for them. As you mentioned, the lack of parent-child relationship in ”Snow White” and ”Where are you Going, Where have you been” caused these girls to suffer and endure conditions that were harsh. These young naïve minds were consumed with appearances which placed them in harms way. Yes, both girl did not have parents to educate and prepare them for the real world.
Hi Sheilaya, I agree and think it’s really interesting how the relationships with the parents in both stories effect the choices of Connie and Snow White. A line that really stood out to me in Bettleheims analysis is “While, physiologically speaking, the parents create the child, it is the arrival of the child which causes these two people to become parents.” This means that having a child have made them parents, but doesn’t define the kind of parents they are, if they are ‘good parents’. In “Snow White”, her step mother is so envious of her beauty, she sets out to kill her. That sounds very immature. And Connie did not have a father figure and that lead her to need attention from elsewhere
A specific observations in Bettleheim’s Psychologically oriented reading that strike me as insightful and relevant was when he identified when the child struggles begins. ”As soon as the position of the child within the family becomes a problem to him or to his parents, the process of the child’s struggle to escape the triadic existence has begun”. This situation causes one to enter the often desperately lonely course to find himself, a struggle in which others
serve mainly as foils who facilitate or impede this process. Both Snow White and Connie had to endure this path because of their parents, who were too consumed with their own lives. Both stories shows how these young minds had to suffer and face situations which they should have never had to endure at that tender age in order to find meaning to their lives. The parents in ”Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” and ”Where are You Going, Where have you been” did not ensure their children were safe and secure.
Treshel, I agree that Connie and Snow were lost to prevent themselves from such sufferings and their parents are to be accountable for this. I believe that the upbringing of a child is very important. Because without zero guidance, no one can walk on the right track without having a sense of how one must tackle any sort of circumstance despite the age. I believe not only children or adolescents but adults too need guidance to get on the right track in their lives and every human does despite their age and experience. It depends on how a child, a person, or their mind takes it, for instance, a child can get guidance from their parents countless of times but be ignorant and trap themselves in troublesome circumstance whereas some without even getting guidance but merely by observing their surroundings get cautious around red flags.
That’s a great observation! The clear lack of parental guidance in both stories leads the protagonists down very tragic paths(in some renditions of snow-white). A lot of these issues are also sadly commonplace in the world around us which is quite ironic since some parents actively seek to prevent their children from reading fairy tales when they are the one’s who should be analyzing and absorbing the morals of the stories.
Gabriel, please address comments to others by name so we can all follow along.
Hi Treshel, I agree that both Snow White’s and Connie’s parents are not interested in them had to endure loneliness. The existence of parents in childhood and adolescence is very great. If they make the wrong decision or are in trouble, their parents will help them and show them the right path, but at that time, their parents are not doing anything. It is necessary to think about things for ourselves, but children are at risk if they make ignorant or wrong decisions as they do. And if the child is not under the guidance of his parents, he will face problems and difficulties that he will never confront.
In my opinion, one connection between “Little Snow White” fairytale, and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” is about the temptations used by the two antagonists in both stories to control the two protagonists. In the analysis, Bettleheim states, “Snow White shows, by permitting herself to be tempted three times by the queen in disguise, that, like most humans —and, most of all, adolescents—she is quite easily tempted. However, Snow White’s inability to resist temptation makes her all the more human and attractive.” The innocent of the two girls made them be an easy target for their predators. At the first encounter between Connie and Arnold Friend, he seduced her by saying “Gonna get you, baby”. Then he tried to get her attention by showing off his car and when that doesn’t work as he wanted it, he uses Connie’s love for music by mentioning “Bobby King”. Finally, he manipulates her mind by saying “I know your name and all about you, lots of things.” Arnold Friend prepares Connie’s devastating destiny because he knew how to tempt an attractive teenager with the inability to resist him.
Hello Kenia, The way you analyzed both connections is really interesting. I agree with you and I believe that the temptation had a lot to do with the manipulation of both characters Connie and Snow White, we can also see the age difference between the antagonist and the protagonist they are trying to seduce. The antagonist uses different tactics as if they had master the art of deception before and were commonly comfortable making their horrible actions which bring such dark and predatory feelings to both stories thus causing the tragedies.
Snow White analysis written by Bruno Bettleheim caught my eye by making many references to Snow White. From exploring a child’s maturity, to showing how problems can occur when a child is young with there parents the one that stood was how hunters in fairy tales are compared to over protecting fathers for there child. We can use this concept to the “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates to show how in Little Snow White” the hunter man both pleases the little girl by not killing her and giving the joy to the step mother believing that snow white has been killed. On the other hand poor Connie didn’t have parents who lectured her the dangers of strangers. The story didn’t really have a hunter man that represents a father figure but instead it was story gone wrong and reminds us the importance of what fathers or mothers should do to guide there children to think for themselves and be more aware.
Brian, yes Bettleheim discusses the roles of both mothers and fathers. In these stories, we see parents who have failed to reach their own maturity and are therefore unable to guide their daughters well.
Several things struck me as interesting from Bettleheim’s analysis on the many iterations that make up the scheme for “Snow white”. For instance, the way that the story doesn’t take a traditional route of bringing in some external problem, but instead the introduction of the child brings about an internal family problem that ends in conflict. In addition, the duality of snow-white as explained by Bettleheim also stuck out to me as when reading the story, I had the impression that snow-white was just a symbol of childlike innocence and purity. However, with the imagery of red blood symbolizing “sexual desire” in contrast to her white skin symbolizing “sexual innocence, it makes for an interesting paradox. Lastly it was interesting to point out how although at a surface level, the main and only source of narcissism seems to originate from the queen, there are plenty of examples of snow-white showing similar characteristics (especially with the ending of sexton’s take on it). For instance, the disguised queen relies on Snow White’s narcissism in order to let her in, whether this takes place in a comb for her hair or stays (atire popular of that time), White gives in to the first opportunity to make herself feel more beautiful, despite the advice of the others.
Jonathan, I really like your discussion of narcissism here. You are so right that even in the fairy tale, Snow White exhibits some of her stepmother’s narcissism, which continually gets her in trouble. Adolescent narcissism also lies at the heart of the Oates story. The Sexton poem is much more blatant on the topic, and we see a Snow White who is just as given to narcissism as the stepmother.
ENG 201-0527
After reading the Grimm’s story of Snow White, I could not help but to notice how naive Snow is. Throughout the story she fell into numerous traps with her step mother until she ultimately succumbed from the poisoned apple and needed to be saved by the prince. It is easy for those who have experienced life to look in and wonder, “what exactly was she thinking?” The same thoughts have crossed my mind when thinking of the character Connie in Oates short story, “ Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” I have stood at the edge of my seat fearful of the inevitable result that will befall Connie. The truth is we were all innocent at one time taking in the surroundings for the first time, having future hopes of independence and the pursuit of dreams. As we grow our experiences and nurturing mold us into what we are. These stories are the creative thoughts of the authors but their meanings are very real.
In both of the stories the reader will note the symbolism of color where white symbolizes purity, innocence, without knowledge, or understanding and red for maturity, womanhood, wisdom or maybe perhaps something evil. In the story Snow White we see references such as her white skin, the snow, her innocent but kind nature. She was beautiful because she was “unblemished”. We then see on the other end references of death, blood, apple, and a heart representing the darkness that exists when innocence is taken away, whether it be the coming of age, maturity, the realization of truth, or the dark deeds of others. Connie also was also represented within these two dualities, “her mouth, which was pale and smirking most of the time, but bright and pink on these evenings out” (Oates). Notice how Connie’s description of her innocent side is of her lips being pale, but in the evenings pink. This also references light and dark as in the evening her lips are colored. Both characters seem to mature through uneventful experiences.
One interesting topic to point out is that in both stories the characters’ innocence is taken from them. The stories caution the consequences of the innocent mind and how the darkness of the world is present and unforgiving to those that cannot see that truth. A thought is only a thought until it is acted upon. It is also fair to say it’s just a story until it is true. This is “the fear of fantasy” that Bettelheim describes. “The “truth” of fairy stories is the truth of our imagination, not that of normal causality. Before a child can come to grips with reality, he must have some frame of reference to evaluate it. When he asks whether a story is true, he wants to know whether the story contributes something of importance to his understanding, and whether it has something significant to tell him in regard to his greatest concerns” (Bettelheim).
This is the reason why Snow White fell for not one but three traps and why Connie was not able to react to her circumstance quickly. As the reader we are to put ourselves in that predicament under the same pretenses, what would be done? What can one do with the knowledge available at the particular moment. The story concludes giving the reader knowledge of something they haven’t thought of before, or answers to the fears within their mind. A fairy tale should not simply be viewed as a story of imagination, the message conveys a lesson that is to be understood. There are many things which people can only imagine just to find out that it is more of a reality than originally thought. Bettelheim goes further to discuss the psychology behind a fairy tale by quoting Freud in stating, “Thought is an explanation of possibilities which avoids all the dangers inherent in actual experimentation. Thought requires a small expenditure of energy, so we have energy available for action after we have reached decisions through speculating about the chances for success and the best way to achieve it” (Bettelheim). The author used an example of scientists working out their ideas to build a hypothesis where they experiment in controlled conditions before applying it in a real scenario. The villains of the story or any villain starts with a thought and experience like anyone else and acts upon it within their own set of rules.
Finally, in the analysis of Anne Sextons, “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” there was a quote that left me with an eerie chill, “at the poem’s end, the last picture is of Snow White consulting her own mirror “as women do.” Even Snow White can be infected by the “simple passion” of beauty and the poison of pride that may accompany it” (Garbett). This points out to several deeper understandings of these two stories. The reader understands who the villain is, but it is understood that all are innocent until they are not. Bettelheim supports this thought by saying, “complex as we all are, conflicted, ambivalent, full of contradictions, the human personality is indivisible. Whatever an experience may be, it always affects all aspects of the personality at the same time”. This means within these stories that anyone can be a villain so not only is caution given to those who do not know better but caution is also given to everyone regardless of experience. The lesson is to beware the paths and the decisions that are made lest we become the villain of our own tale or the victim of another.
Juan, you have covered so much in this discussion of the literary works and the Bettleheim piece. I’m struck by your comment about truth in fairy tales. Yes, the stories are “made up” or, as some might sat, “not true.” However, as you note in your discussion of the Bettleheim piece, there are large truths embedded in the Snow White story. Bettleheim contends, among many points, that children can learn from observing the behaviors of the characters in stories without endangering themselves. It is reassuring, as well, for children to see that these characters can make multiple mistakes without a fatality. But you are so right about the lesson of being aware of the “paths and decisions that are made lest we become the villain of our own tale or the victim of another.” Thanks for an insightful and generous post.
In Bettleheim’s analysis of Snow White he states that, “just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood.” This line is relevant to both Snow White and Connie because they are both young teenagers who are experiencing their first few years of adolescence and hence, they have strong desires such as being sexually attractive and therefore place a high emphasis of their worth based upon how they look, and it is this desire that leads to their tragic downfall. Teenagers are also considered naïve and innocent because of their uncontrollable passion and desires which makes them easy targets, and this proves the point that Bettelheim has made, though you may look physically mature it doesn’t mean that you’re also mentally mature because being mentally mature means that you are able to make rational decisions for your safety and well-being without being influenced by anyone.
Hey Payshanti, I never thought of it like that. The whole physical maturity doesn’t translate to emotional and intellectual maturity view makes a lot of sense. Snow White although was what was considered physical maturity wasn’t all that intelligent to understand that she shouldn’t open the door and interact with the stranger on the other side, no matter how many times she got tricked and how many times the dwarfs told her not to open the door. This was also the case with Connie, she was 15 and didn’t really understand what was happening until it was too late. If any of these characters caught on with their “maturity” then they probably couldn’t avoided the problems they ran into.
Payshanti, your remarks are well taken, but several students have already discussed this particular quote. The Bettleheim article is quite rich in ideas, and it would be great if students would briefly browse through Db so as not to repeat similar comments. Thanks!
There were a couple observations I made while reading Bettleheim’s analysis that tied the snow white story and “Where are you going? Where have you been?”. Something that was made apparent through analysis’ of “Where are you going?” is that it plays out as an inverted or more sinister fairy tale, Snow white itself is spoken as a fairy tale. Some comparisons that are made apparent while reading Bettleheim’s analysis is through familial relationships and sexuality, also death, but I might be reaching with that one. Bettleheim’s analysis references family by analyzing the relationship between snow white and her step mother, on one side u see innocence and naivety and on the other envy and rage, none acknowledge each other appropriately. You draw the connection of familial relationships throughout the two stories in the sense that both sides have parents that care little or not at all about them. Snow Whites father is never mentioned other than in the intro and clearly her step mother hates her while in “Where Are You Going” Connie’s parents pay no attention to their daughter, leaving her vulnerable to what happens to her. We see a connection when it comes to sexuality throughout both stories as well. Snow Whites entire appearance depicts innocence she loses that innocence and would mature into a woman when she is to marry the Prince who awakens her. For Connie however its more tragic as her Prince charming is much more sinister and forces the removal of Connie’s innocence. And lastly with death, Snow White is put into a lot of near death experiences but its a fairy tale so she ends up coming back, death isn’t the end but used as a plot device to signal her triumph and happy ending. For Connie however we presume she is killed shorty after she is abducted, there isn’t a confirmation but she wouldn’t be coming back.
After reading the short story ” Little Snow White” i have made some observations. One observation that I made is the hunter men do not kill snow white but show some decency because they know it is wrong. So what they did is they told the evil step mother that they killed snow white to give her some joy even though they didn’t do it. In the story “Where are you going, Where have you been”, unfortunately the girl did not have anybody to save her like the hunter men so she was killed. She was killed because she was not taught by her parents or any adult about advice on strangers. Snow white was taught and had a father-like relationship with the hunter men about safety from the evil step mother who wanted her dead.
Alexsander, can you refer to the Bettleheim article a bit more in this discussion of the hunter figure?
After reading the Snow White analysis by Bruno Bettleheim I noticed the author uses Color symbolism like white for purity and red for sexuality. Both stories like,” Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates are similar by being viewed as coming-of-age narratives. In Bettleheim’s analysis he mentions “just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood”. These readings are very similar by sharing the same concept in mind that young, and innocent women lead themselves into danger because of a lack of experience in emotions. In which dangerous people can take advantage from this. Both Snow White and Connie are both young women are hated or disliked for their looks and because they seek acceptance from outsiders.
A specific observation in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story that strike me as insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, is that both stories tell about mothers who are jealous of their daughters. As Bettleheim writes, “This is not the first story of a mother’s jealousy of her daughter’s budding sexuality, nor is it all that rare that a daughter in her mind accuses her mother of such jealousy.” In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”, Connie and her mother had a very poor relationship that contributed to her constantly wanting to rebel against her mother. “Stop gawking at yourself, who are you? You think you’re so pretty?.” By this statement from Connie’s mother we can infer that she was very jealous of Connie’s appearance and would take this jealousy out on her daughter. Connie’s sister was not as beautiful as she was.It is obvious why Connie’s mother preferred June to Connie, with June there was no jealousy. Likewise, in “Little Snow White,” the stepmother is very narcissistic and obsessed with power, she constantly wanted to be the center of attention. The Queen was seized with jealousy because she could not stand not to be the best. Moreover, both stories show that a parent’s jealousy of their child can lead the child to feel the need to rebel against them. Although both Connie and Snow White became physically mature, both stories also show that they were not as independent as they once thought, and that they did not know as much about life as they thought.
Altynai, thanks for the excellent comments. It’s true that Connie’s mother’s attitude is shown to readers through the lens of Connie’s perception, but it does seem that her constant nagging about Connie’s interest in her appearance points to her own interest in this element. I also appreciate your comments about the effects of the jealousy of the parent figure and how one result can be rebellion in the child. As you note, the mother in the Oates story praises June because she is not jealous of this less attractive daughter (at least, according to Connie).
A specific observation in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story that strikes me as insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates is the psychological effects and its development when the innocence of a child is being taken away or is being abused primarily with a fraudulent intention. Bettleheim agrees, “When a child tries to understand himself and others, or figure out what the specific consequences of some action might be, he spins fantasies around these issues. It is his way of “playing with ideas.” To offer a child rational thought as his major instrument for sorting out his feelings and understanding the world will only confuse and restrict him” (Bettleheim). This statement proves that a child’s psychology can easily be driven away and is easy to manipulate when the situation is challenging them emotionally. In both the story by Oates, “Little Snow White” & “Where are you going, Where have you been?”, the commonality between them is their character development of these two young female characters. They both experience a loss of innocence, guidance, and parenthood. What came to my notice while making these observations is why did Oates pick female characters and not male? Does this show that Oates believes that children do not have a sense of protecting themselves without good parenting but being more specifically females because they are more sensitive than males in general? Why does he depict a gender role?
Section (1209)
Prasika, I love your analysis about the effect of parenting. Your last sentence stood out to me the most. In these two stories both, Snow White and Connie are robbed of the knowledge about the world they live in. The way Snow White kept taking the dangerous item from the stepmother and the dwarfs told her about the stepmother’s attempts showed how ignorant she is. As for Connie, her mother never paid mind to how dangerous this immense amount of looks Connie has. They both didn’t have the tools to cope with such a pivotal moment in their lives and a majority of it is the parent’s lack of guidance.
Prasika, thanks for the insightful comments. You raise an interesting question about gender. I’d be curious to hear what others have to say. Is it only girls whose innocence is threatened as they near sexual maturity? What is the impact for boys of jealousy in a parent?
When was reading the story “Snow White” by Bruno Bettleheim it was interesting. The reason is because the connection to both character “Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Both characters went through the struggle not understand what is going around them? However, in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” Connie thought of her self being beautiful and flaunting her beauty. In her case no one check on her what she was doing, where she is going. On the other hand Snow White had dwarfs to guide her and tell her what to and what not.
Shapla, can you offer a bit more reference to the Bettleheim article in this discussion of childhood struggle?
There was some fascinating connection between the analysis of “Little Snow White” and “Where are you going, where have you been”. Narcissisms and lack of guidance in both the protagonist and antagonist have major elements in the stories. As Bettleheim explains in “Little Snow White,” the stepmother needs to be the most beautiful person, as she needs validation from a magical mirror. When the mirror explained that she is not the most beautiful, and her stepdaughter is, to whom she paid no attention till then, she stopped at nothing to banish her. In Snow White’s case, her own beauty makes her clueless when her stepmother, dressed up as an imposter, tries to kill her twice with items that she thought will enhance her beauty. In “Where are you going, Where have you been” the daughter also feels threatened by her mothers’ maturity and independence. Their relationship is not good because of the competition they feel towards each other. The daughter, Connie, thinks extremely highly of herself. He needs for sexual attention, and looks make her naïve to what others think of her. She thinks that she is trying to look good for boys, but she is attracting dangerous men in actuality. Her mother was consumed by competition to her daughter that it distracted her from realizing the actual danger Connie had when it came to getting attention. While reading Betteheim’s analysis, this embedded concept of narcissism negatively impacted all of the character’s struck out to me the most.
Hi Megan, I also found the concept of narcissism in Bettleheim’s article very interesting and relevant to both stories. Something I saw him point out was that adolescents may project their feelings of jealousy onto their parent, in order to make themselves feel superior when in actuality they are in a relatively powerless position. I thought it was really interesting what he pointed out and could possibly lead to many different interpretations of the stories.
Snow White analysis by Bruno Bettelheim can have readers such as myself interested and intrigued by the way the story is narrated. It isn’t told in the way a story is normally told. When references the story Snow White, we see the hunter not kill the little girl and finds amusement in the fact that her step mother believes she is dead. She went through a lot eventually having to be saved by the prince, and i think all she had went through was giving the lesson of being more aware and keen to things in life. Also in the quote by Bettelheim that says “as complex as we all are, conflicted ambivalent, full of contradictions, the human personality is indivisible.” this quote stood out to me the most at the end and i believe expressed the idea that readers do know who is bad and good, but at a point they were all good until they ended up turning that way.
Both “Where Are You Going, Where Have you been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, and “snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton portray two classic stories with striking similarities which may not be noticed at first glance. Each story depicts their own version of the classic “coming of age” trope we’ve all grown fond of, albeit with a twist. Each story shows us the results of a coming-of-age story gone wrong. Both Snow-white and Connie lack the guidance of parental figures that one usually receives when young and end up spiraling towards the wrong path. The common factor between Snow white and Connie would be what Bettelheim describes in his analysis as Narcissism. Snow White’s narcissism leads her to partake of the apple given to her by the queen in disguise in order to become more “beautiful” leading to her what would be death if not saved by her prince charming. Although for Connie, She believed that she was way more mature for her age than she believed and sadly met a tragic end at the hands of Arnold Friend.
One specific observation in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading that is I found relevant to the poem “Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton is when he stated “Some parents fear that by telling their children about the fantastic events found in fairy tales, they are “lying” to them……Many fairytales offer and answer before the question can be asked” In my opinion fairy tales help children get a better perspective of the world. When is comes to Snow White when I was read this story as a child I understood then that you do not trust everyone. Snow White trusted the little old woman who offered her an apple and as a result of being too trustworthy she was poisoned when she ate the apple and fell into a deep sleep, this is one of the first real world lessons I was taught as a result of fairy tales. When you think about it many of the fairy tales we were exposed to as children had hidden lessons in them. “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton had the hidden messages of jealousy and trusting too much since the story began so I agree with Bettlehim that many fairytales offer answers before the question can be asked.
Chayadevi, I love the insight from Bettleheim that you cite about how fairy tales “can offer answers before the question can be asked.” Children understand the lessons of the stories before they are developmentally able to actually articulate the lessons.
After I read the analysis of “Snow White” written by Bruno Bettelheim, “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” I found several in common. Both the girls in the story are old and physically growing, but their inner intelligence is not keeping up with their physical growth. I think that the juncture and developmental tasks of life are clearly expressed. The girls lack judgment and are immature because their thoughts and experience points have not yet grown. The relationship with their parents is also a problem. Their parents are not interested in their children and have parents, but they feel lonely and are looking for meaning. The existence of a parent is very significant when the child turns into adolescence, and the parent guides and helps the child. But it turns out that Connie’s mother isn’t interested in her, Snow White’s stepmother hates her, and their father isn’t interested in her real child either. As a result, they are not able to make good or bad judgments, which represents their inner immaturity. Connie kept her ego by self-absorption and lived such a life, and Snow White faced her life-threatening trap many times because of her innocence.
Bettleheim’s article points out interesting aspects of “Little Snow White” that are also paralleled in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”. He points out the relationship between Snow White and her step mother is centered around jealousy, as they both are competing for the father’s love. Because of the narcissistic personality of the step mother this jealousy cannot be overlooked, which manifests itself indirectly as jealousy over the child’s looks. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, we see the same dynamic between Connie and her mother. Bettleheim would suggest that the character of the mother suffers from a similar narcissism. While on the surface level she is jealous of Connie’s looks, subconsciously she feels threatened by her and the possibility that the father might show her more affection. However, since the story is told from the perspective of Connie, this may be her projections of her own jealousy of her mother and the advantages that adulthood gives her. Bettleheim points out that children may use this as a defense mechanism, turning their position of inferiority into superiority by fabricating reasons that their parent may be jealous of them.
Section 1209
After reading through snow white by Bruno Bettleheim, is similar to “Where are you going?” in the way that both young characters are trying to become adults aka women. In both stories, we can see that both young girls Snow white and Connie’s incenece are taken away from them, by them trying to become young women and be wiser with their decision. We then see on the other end references of death, blood, apple, and a heart representing the darkness that exists when innocence is taken away, whether it be the coming of age, maturity, the realization of truth, or the dark deeds of others. As for Connie, her mother also, in a way subjects her to trials, as well. Connie is well within earshot for the phone conversations that her mother has, where she berates her daughter for not being as her sister is. Connie sees her sister as a mature woman, so she emulates that the only way she would know-how, is to gain the admiration of her mother. Both characters seem to mature through uneventful experiences in their lifetime [comeing of age].
In my opinion, one of the connections between ” Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been？” is that parents’ bad attitude towards their children can cause their children to struggle. In Bruno Bettleheim’s analysis of Snow White, he wrote :”As soon As the position of the child within the family becomes a problem to him or to his Parents, the process of the child’s struggle to escape the triadic existence has been designed.” This is indicated in both stories. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been？”, Connie’s mother was jealous of Connie’s youth and beauty and often compared her with her sister, which led to their relationship being not harmonious and aroused Connie’s desire to prove herself, which was Connie’s struggle and finally led to her being deceived by Friend. In ” Little Snow White”, Snow White’s misery also come from her family, because he stepmother is jealous of her beauty and seeks someone to kill her, it also makes her struggle against despair, but the “Little Snow White” is a fairy tale, Snow White on the way to find the seven dwarfs and finally gets the prince’s salvation, and Connie had no.
Hey Hongbin, I totally agree with you the way that their mothers/ step-mothers brought them up had a major role in the way that each of the characters went through their lives. Collie eventually went on to try to prove herself through the satisfaction of boys, and on the other hand Snow White struggles to get away from her step mom. But the endings were vastly different because one was a fairy tale and the other had an awful ending.
Hey Hongbin, I totally agree with you the way that their mothers/ step-mothers brought them up had a major role in the way that each of the characters went through their lives. The quality that both mothers had in common was jealousy which would eventually drive them away.
There were many observations in the “Little Snow White” that were really similar to the story “Where Are you Going, Where have You been?” by Joyce Carol Oates. One of the observations was the need for curiosity from Snow White that was similar to that of Connie in her tragic story. In “Little Snow White” her stepmom would use a disguise to get close to Snow White and try to kill her so she can obtain that which she holds dear, true beauty. Although the Dwarfs tell Snow-white to not open the door for anybody she went on and opened the door to fulfill her curiosity even when she knew it was the wrong action to take, her need for discovery and interest always got the best of her in these scenarios. “Similarly in Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been” Connie was reluctant to totally avoid Arnold Friend although she knew that it could be dangerous to give attention to someone we don’t know, or someone who has a deep interest in our lives. In the Story Connie soon realizes that Arnold Friend is a predator disguised as a young teenager to sickly obtain his prey. Both Connie and Snow White had an interest in discovery and developed an interest in their predators thus causing a tragic end in both stories.
Junior, your observations are good, but I don’t hear any reference to the Bettleheim article.
For this weeks discussion I have to admit that I was a little shocked when I read Bettleheims psychologically oriented reading of “Snow White.” I guess i am guilty of not having looked more into the tale and accepting the Disney view. After reading Bettleheims review however, I was able to pick up the subtle things I had not seen before. The connection between the 3 drops of blood and losing of virginity for instance, had flown right over my head. What I did notice however is the fact that Snow White lived on despite the fact that her parents where psychologically not there for her because the Seven Dwarfs provided the stabilty the parents did not. Connie however, had her actual birth parents who did not engage her with the important dialog like”where are you going, where have you been,” and because of that, she lost her life. What this told me is that while having parents to quide you through your formative years is the most ideal,in the absence of that there is still hope for a child as long as there is someone who stands in to give moral guidance, (ravens), wisdom (owls) and love, (doves) . Snow White failed three times until she got her “time out” …time of reflection and with the support of the dwafts was able to grow. Connie unfortunatley had no support, no real life wisdom shared through trial and error like Snow White and this led to her ultimate demise. Connies story is sad and Snow White still gives hope even when things are not the best of circumstances.
Hi Janine, like you, I am guilty of accepting the Disney view about “Little Snow White”, and it funny that in my silly memory about this fairytale, Snow White was revived by a kiss of the prince, when in effect Sleeping Beauty was the one awake by a prince kiss. I also agree with your comment that having parents close to a child won’t assure that the kid will receive a proper guide like in Connie’s case; and even when a child is abandoned by the parents, there is still others that can try to protect and guide the kid as “Seven Dwarfs” did with “Little Snow White”.
The story Snow White is an old fairytale story in which entails a sweet, beautiful little girl to be persecuted by her mother for how jealous she was of her beauty. Though the story is famous to be a children’s fairytale story, there are a lot of insightful messages and symbolism that can be developed from this simple tale. For starters the symbolism of snow in the story can signify the purity and innocence that Snow White contained. The drops of blood contrast this by having it resemble sexual desire and maturity. The story also embarks one’s narcissism and egotistical phase by how we see Snow White stepmom act. This is demonstrated through the story each time we see her seek reassurance of her beauty from the magic mirror. As described by Bruno Bettleheim, as a child begins to mature and reach for independence, they start to experience as a menace for such parents. This is because the parent begins to feel useless and starts to feel like aging. This is exactly what we see by Snow Whites stepmother for she grew to intolerance Snow white to the point she wished her death.
In both “Little Snow White” and “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” something that stuck out to me was the effect the mother had on both of the protagonists. In “Little Snow White” Snow White’s step-mother was jealous ever since she had lost the number one spot of being the prettiest and would then lead her to go and try to kill her multiple times. In this story the realization that beauty was power, and Snow White was told she was beautiful by so many people and she would get protected by the seven dwarfs and then the prince. When you read “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” you can see a strikingly different point of view of beauty, Connie would be made to feel bad about her beauty and because of that I think her going out to find boys was a way for her to get that sense of acknowledgement of her beauty which would eventually lead her to getting attacked by a predator. This being said you can see the difference in the two stories of how when you have the love of people around you and not having to constantly try to find a way to get it when you are looking for a way to fill that emptiness it can lead to interaction with bad people and lead to awful things.
The specific observations in Bettelheim’s psychologically reading of the story are insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White.” Bettelheim believes that fairy tales such as “Little Snow White” as an opportunity to provide children with comfort while empowering the kids to get away from their despairs. On the other hand, modern stories fail to provide specific hope for the children, which is primary audience. According to Bettelheim, fairy stories are just the truth of our imagination. A fairy tale provides what the child needs and can be considered as the beginning of where a child is emotional, demonstrates where the child needs to go and how to do it. “Little Snow White” is meant to portray innocence, purity, and goodness, while the evil queen symbolizes malicious intent. Fairy tales such as the “Little Snow White has a better impact on the children especially based on the themes of the story where good is seen triumphing over evil. The purpose of fairy tales is to entertain at the same time deliver life lessons, especially about manners and treating other people with respect regardless of who they are. Children are likely to get misconceptions of life where they get the fairy tales different from the actual life circumstances.
Khadijah i really liked the reason that you picked which is the story is to provide the children with comfort. despite all that was said about the reading this was the main objective and i forgot that it was meant for children. i also liked what you said about how the fairy stories are the truth of our imagination. this is very true and it was very well put.
Mark, you have to do a bit more than just repeat and agree with someone else’s comment. In these discussions, we want to always be adding to the conversation.
In the psychological analysis of “Snow White” by Bruno Bettleheim he states “If a child cannot permit himself to feel his jealousy of a parent, he projects his feelings onto this parent. Then “I am jealous of all the advantages and prerogatives of Mother” turns into the wishful thought: “Mother is jealous of me.” The feeling of inferiority is defensively turned into a feeling of superiority. This explained and gave me a different perspective of Connie’s mindset in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”. Connie thought she was so very pretty and her mother must have been jealous. Shewas a different person at home as opposed to who she was when she was outside with her friends, and the person Connie was with her friends is who she really aspired to be. She feels like her mother is holding her back from that, but there may be some jealousy there. I think she is envious that her mother is mature and independent and Connie would like to be more mature and independent as well. The article by Bettleheim mentions the dynamic between the parents as maybe a reason for the jealousy. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” her father isn’t really present and I don’t see much of a relationship with the father, so that’s not the reason of the jealousy but I do believe her sister takes on that roll. Her mother is very proud of her sister and that creates some of the jealousy we see. It is because she aspires to be mature and independent like her mother and sister, that gets her into the situation she is in.
From reading the snow white analysis by Bettleheim, the part that strikes me as insightful and relevant is when he mentions that snow white has a nature of purity but also sexuality. When I seen this I thought of the imagery used in the story and the rolls colors play. In “Little Snow White”, when we are first presented with the queen aka her mom, we see that she pricks her finger causing blood to fall onto the white snow, possibly making it appear brighter. However, this wasn’t presented in just a regular color type of light, we are described this scene to show us the imagery and give the colors deeper meaning. When presenting the color white, it is a color of purity and innocence however, when the blood has fallen onto the snow making it appear brighter, the snow this dropplet has fallen on has lost it’s shine and in symbolic terms, it has lost it’s innocence. In the real world, the color red is always seen as sexy which in a story can represent sexuality and a loss of innocents. These symbolic meanings continue throughout the story when the queen gives birth to little snow white and her skin is as white as snow with rosy red cheeks. Besides color symbolism, we can see this idea of a loss of innocents as the magic mirror considers her the fairest of them all. Snow is just a baby and somehow she is put in a sexual light as a 7 year old, being considered the most beautiful ever seen. The evil queen is then sent into a rage because of this. Imagine being grown and becoming enraged because a 7 year old is the prettiest? That’s outrageous and shows that just because snow herself isn’t sexual, she is put in a light by others where she is lusted and envied by others.
Hi Emmalee.
Your quote, “The evil queen is then sent into a rage because of this. Imagine being grown and becoming enraged because a 7 year old is the prettiest? That’s outrageous and shows that just because snow herself isn’t sexual, she is put in a light by others where she is lusted and envied by others.” struck me me because honestly when this story was told to me as a child, It was presented as a beauitiful love story. The sexualism was not something i saw. Now as an adult i see it through this class and our readings but i did not understand the undertones before.
In the poem “snow white and the seven dwarfs” there is a lot of selfish desires and self interest. This poem is a lot about the value of women based on there looks and how weak they are. Later on snow white marries a prince and realizes that her beauty is what makes her valuable and I mention this because in the analysis of Bettelheim he mentions that fault in snow white is the jealousy of the mother. This observation that Bettelheim made makes so much sense because most of the times its jealousy and greed is what usually end up being the problem. This is common In many stories so that is why I like the point that he made. This insight was relevant to the snow white because it was meant to be towards that story . this is what I feel like Bettleheim’s insight was towards the poem “Snow white and the seven dwarfs.”
In Bettelheim’s psychological analysis of “Snow White”, he said “narcissism is very much part of the young child’s make-up. The child must gradually learn to transcend this dangerous form of self involvement.” In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates and “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton, the similarity is they both describe the consequences of surrendering to narcissism. In “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?”, Connie lost a family activity in order to wash her hair. When she noticed Arnold’s strange behavior, she did not adopt the correct strategy in time, and finally put herself in a dangerous situation. In “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”, the queen wanted to kill Snow White because of her narcissism, and Snow White accepted the queen’s temptation to make herself beautiful. In the end, the queen paid the price for her narcissism, and Snow White became a woman like the queen.
The observations made by the psychoanalyst, Bruno Bettlehei has made a few things clear to me about the story of “Snow White” and how these types of stories are more important than most people realize. In Bettlehei psychological analysis of “Snow White” he states “Relying on his own resources, all the child can imagine are elaborations of where he presently is, since he cannot know where he needs to go, nor how to
go about getting there. This is where the fairy tale provides what the child needs most: it begins exactly where the child is emotionally, shows him where he has to go, and how to do it. But the fairy tale does this by implication, in the form of fantasy material which the child can draw on as seems best to him, and by means of images which make
it easy for him to comprehend what is essential for him to understand.” From reading this, he has made it clear to me that this is more than just a simple fairy tale for children. These kinds of stories, regardless of how fictional they are, hold important lessons or elements that readers will benefit from learning. In “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, it states “Very soon she opened her eyes, and raising the lid of the glass case, she rose up and asked, “Where am I?” Full of joy, the Prince answered, “You are safe with me.” And he told to her what she had suffered, and how he would rather have her than any other for his wife, and he asked her to accompany him home to the castle of the King his father. Snow-White consented, and when they arrived there they were married with great splendor and magnificence.” Based on Bruno Bettlehei’s analysis, I can see that this part of the story is can give readers an understanding of what it means to be in love, which is caring so deeply for someone that your will to do anything for them.
Hello Marvin. I chose to reply to you today because i think you can see something that sometimes we miss. I often try to put myself in my childrens place which is something i think sometimes people fail to do. I remember being 13, 14, 15 and how my frame of mind was soooo different. I think sometimes adults fail to go back in time, fail to think about the innocence and just , lack of knowledge of a child. A child is so easily swayed at these years and it is so important to communicate about the world around us. I think you you and i could agree… Bettleheim’s article that “just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood” ….and thus the seven dwarfs…. maybe we only have one…we are lucky if we have seven.
The statement in Bettleheim’s article that “just because one has reached physical maturity, one is by no means intellectually and emotionally ready for adulthood” made me think about how both characters Connie and Snow White are both depicted as being beautiful naïve young girls but they have not matured enough to know the dangers of the world. Physical maturity for women is typically thought as when they have reached puberty. Despite the attention that they can receive from their beauty, on the inside they are still child-like and immature, and it is not fair that they are treated and regarded as if they are not, and frankly it is taking advantage of young girls. They are manipulated by these people who have no intention of caring for the girls and even causing them harm such as in both stories. The evil queen in Snow White had no regard for snow white being a child, nor did Arnold have any regard for Connie being a child and instead of protecting them as typically we would protect children and encourage their development into adulthood and self-sufficiency, they sexualized these young girls and saw only their appearance. This is a failure of society even these days.
What specific observations in Bettleheim’s psychologically oriented reading of the story strike you as insightful and relevant to “Little Snow White,” “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” by Joyce Carol Oates, or the poem “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” by Anne Sexton?
\\\
As I was reading the analysis’s made by Bettleheim’s reading, he made a few points about how jealous can make people do horrible things. For example he states, “Snow White’s narcissism nearly undoes her as she gives in twice to … while the queen is destroyed by her own narcissism.” Snow White’s step-mother was so jealous of Snow White’s beauty that cause her to want to kill Snow White, so she can be the only beautiful person in the town. Bettleheim’s explains about how they sexualized Snow White because at the age of 7, they made it seem as she was the most beautiful person in the town and everyone wanted her. They explained how they looked and what they worn, they try to sexualized her appearance.
Aylin, I was thinking the same thing. I find that the themes of jealousy throughout all three writings is a driving force. From the jealousy of the queen to the jealousy of Jane’s mother. This jealousy leads both young girls to feel a lack of self-worth. It leads them to believe they need a source of validation and approval. Jealousy ultimately leads Snow White to melt in her shoes, and Jane to an untimely end with Arnold Friend.
In both variations of “Snow White” and the short story by Oates, the female protagonist tries to maintain a virgin image. There are many different images and symbols used to portray this innocence. In Oates’ story and the poem, there is a correlation to the demise of the young girl. They are both objectified by jealous people and pay the ultimate price. Being young and naïve come with some drawbacks, one being unfamiliar with the dangers of manipulation and people. In all three writings I find that the jealousy of each antagonist provides a pathway for the demise of the protagonist. The reader can also see the doubt that is placed by each antagonist into the heads of the young girls. Arnold Friend is in many ways similar to “the mirror.” Just like Friend, the “mirror” manipulates people into doubting themselves. Almost leading them straight to the path of their own demise.