In Oedipus the King, the Chorus functions as the collective voice of the citizens of Thebes. The Odes, sung by the chorus, also exemplify one of Aristotle’s criteria for great tragic theatre: “language enhanced by varying beauties.” Select one passage (You do not have to discuss the entire ode) sung by the Chorus and write a 150-word post in which you analyze the meaning of the passage and give examples of some of the beautiful language employed. Include the line numbers for us. Be sure to include the quoted material.
Also, address comments to others by name so we can all follow along.
85 thoughts on “Week 5 Discussion”
Hello Everyone.
1st – My first impression/observations was of Oedipus the King and it is is that he is a Intelligent man. I received that right from the very beginning text where it states that He, Oedipus was the only one who could solve a riddle which would save the entire Kingdom from ruin.
Creon, appointed ruler of Thebes, offered the kingdom and the
hand of his sister, Jocosta to anyone who could solve the riddle. When Oedipus answered the riddle, the outraged, Sphinx destroyed herself, and Oedipus became King of Thebes. Thus Oeidipus went from being a nothing in his societty…to being the King of his land.
2nd- The next thing I observed is that Oedipus was a very patriotic man and loved his country and this is shown early on in the text. 70 “My spirit groans for city and myself and you at once.You have not roused me like a man from sleep; know that I have given many tears to this, gone many ways wandering in thoughts, but as I thought I found only one remedy and that I took. Oedipus loved his country and was a good man in heart.
3rd- Oedipus was a man of faith that believed if he ruled with the wisdom of the Gods, he would rid their land of curses. ” OEDIPUS: His face is bright. O holy Lord Apollo, 90 grant that his news too may be bright for us
and bring us safety.”
From the text I believe Oedipus was a good man, with a good intention for his country, and unfortunately he was chosen to live out the curse that was placed on him through his lineage.
ENG 201 (0534)
Janine, this is a sensitive and thoughtful portrait of King Oedipus as he is seen in the early part of the play. You will receive full credit for your response. However, I have changed the question for the week because I know from experience that this question invites a lot of repetitious response. You are not obligated to post another full-length post; however, please do respond to a colleague once other comments are posted. I’m sorry for the mix-up!
(Lines 542-591) After the dialogue between Oedipus and Teiresias, the odes help shape the conflicted sentiment of the city of Thebes as a whole. Before this portion, it was the town (as well as Creon’s word) that urged Oedipus to seek council from what at that point had been the most accurate oracle of Apollo’s word. They see the blind man be coerced into telling the truth, that being that Oedipus the king (the one coercing him to tell), is the one guilty of the wicked deed. It would be expected that they just side with the wise oracle, but since they hold Oedipus to such high esteem (as seen by the start where the priest says “because we thought of you as our god”), they are reluctant to believe unless he is guilty without a reasonable doubt. They are torn on whether to believe Oedipus, the man that once saved the city from the sphynx, or Teiresias, the highly respected oracle of Apollo. Some language pointing to these conflicted thoughts include “The augur has spread confusion, terrible confusion; I do not approve what was said nor can I deny it” (564-568), and after saying they can’t believe it until the oracle is proven without a reason to doubt, they then say “For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us saw his wisdom and in that test,
he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind” (587-590)
ENG 201 (50409)
A line from the chorus that I found interesting was lines 555 to 560. After Teiresias tells Oedipus that he is the one that killed his father and they exchange harsh words out of anger, one person says “He is sad and lonely, his feet that carry him far from the navel of the earth but its prophecies, ever-living flutter around his head”. The whole exchange was interesting but what stuck out to me about this line was, Teiresias prophecy and his character was questioned numerous times and he is an acclaimed oracle in the city. So to have his profession questioned by the king is dangerous, especially since it seems that it is all he has. I enjoyed their altercation because it showed how angry and driven to fear Oedipus became as Teiresias continued to speak the truth. One thing that I noticed about Oedipus is how driven he is to find answers and how his fear clouded his judgement.
Serafina, the passage you quote containly poetic and metaphorical language that meets Aristotle’s criteria for “language enhanced by varying beauties.”. However, is this passage really about the king’s questioning of Teiresias? Isn’t it a vivid description of how the people imagine the terror and haunting guilt of whomever murdered the king as he tries to flee justice?
I definitely agree Serafina, this is especially important since the people themselves are the ones that recommend seeking Teiresias wisdom. To have the truth be so shocking and unexpected, the chorus feels so blindsided that they begin to even question the very person that they trust most to bring a accurate word from Apollo. In addition, the disbelief of Oedipus stands out to me as he genuinely believes he is being slandered, not of someone who is purposefully trying to manipulate the narrative (which is why he is just as blindsided as the crowd, to the point that he believes its a plot against him).
I loved this Ode in and out because I love Greek mythology, I wish we could’ve touched base on more than just one passage in this discussion. For me, I would like to analyze the passage starting from line 345-740 because it symbolizes where the conflict of this whole story starts. Here we have a king Oedipus who is so desperate to save his city he doesn’t realize that he is the cause of the city’s pollution and curse. When he is accused of being the reason his city crumbles he feels as though Creon was the reason. His behavior shows that he isn’t meant to be a good ruler and that id due to his anger and arrogance. There were so many beautiful languages and one that stuck out with me the most was line 630-636 where Creon says “If you think obstinacy without wisdom a valuable possession, you are wrong”. I loved this line because this is what caused Oedipus’ downfall. He was so stubborn and quick to anger that the didn’t want to reason out the fact that he may potentially be the reason his city is no longer prospering. Not only that but this is an everyday principle lived out in our daily lives. If we do not take time to look at all the facts and stories presented to us we can cause our own demise and downfall. I love how this Ode can relate to our everyday lives and tribulations.
Regina, your comments are very astute and also very timely in our world of “alternate facts” and conspiracy theories. As you note, Oedipus creates his own conspiracy theory about Creon without any evidence whatsoever. I agree with you that this is the behavior of someone who is not a good leader. I felt this often during the Trump presidency. (If there are any Trump supporters in the group, please feel free to disagree). However, I do not find the line you chose to be particularly poetic. I’m thinking that maybe your idea of “varying beauties” might include powerfully true language.
Hey Regina, I agree with your observation of Oedipus and his temper. In the beginning of the play he is presented as an intelligent and action orientated man. However as the play progresses his intelligent nature becomes clouded by fear and anger. When Oedipus was confronting Creon, you can tell it was the tipping point. His fear of being thrown out of the city and him being the murder put him in a state of panic and anger. After that moment it became a snowball effect.
Hello Regina, I agree with you, I do believe the entire conflict began when it was mention to the king that he is the killer, then later the idea of Creon been the killer, is like passing the blame to someone else, which is a childish move in my opinion. I also agree when you said, “he isn’t meant to be…. a ruler… due to his anger and arrogance.” I believe every king is arrogant, and is normal to be, but what it shouldn’t be its permitting that to affect your judgement, after all a king should always be smart and wise on his decisions.
Jon, I think you make a great point that every king is probably arrogant. What would people think of a humble king, I wonder.
Hi Regina, I agree with your point that arrogance is what causes Oedipus’s downfall. Another example of this is when Oedipus accuses Creon for plotting with Tiresias for a coup-d’etat. The king doesn’t know that as time goes on, Creon will succeed him and he will eventually beg for his fate from Creon. Oedipus’ metaphorical blindness to the truth which is intensified by his anger foreshadows the king’s literal blindness at the end of the drama.
Regina,
I love your enthusiasm for Greek mythology. I totally agree with your post and the quote “If you think obstinacy without wisdom a valuable possession, you are wrong” plus that it relates to what we often see in the world today. Personally, I find myself feeling annoyed by older stories like this one where it is spoken in such a way that feels so outdated, it makes it much harder to understand. To be able to understand it, I had to pay close attention. I did like the moral of the story. This was my first time reading Greek literature and I thought it was interesting. I like the words of wisdom thrown in. I imagined it playing out in my mind, and I also thought about the scenes from the video “History of Theatre 1 – From Ritual to Theatre” where people in the plays wore masks and acted dramatically; I thought how interesting it would be to view “Oedipus The King” rendered out as one of those plays.
Regina I too love Greek mythology and found this play very interesting to read almost as if we were there in the city with them. I would like to comment though on where the conflict started I believe it started a little bit earlier between lines 150 and 210 when Creon returns where they begin to tell us about the plague that is ravaging their city and killing all their women and children also mentioning the war god that they had conflict with who it seems was responsible in ravaging their city with plague.they even plead with the other gods, the protectors of earth, Zeus, Apollo, Artemis and Dyonis who have always outcast the war god as well to protect earth in the past.
In this portion, the typical quickness of Oedipus’s words and actions begins to work against him. When Tiresias arrives, Oedipus adores him like an prophet who has protected Thebes from many curses (Line 340). Only later, he refers to Tiresias as “scum,” and soon after that accuses him of treason. Oedipus evaluates the situation, makes a judgment, and acts immediately. (Lines 527-572). In this Ode, the chorus speculates at the prophet’s accusation that Oedipus is the murderer of Laius. As loyal disciples, they are shocked and mystified. Still, they decide to stand by their king unless the charges are proved. The ode continues to display the motif of spiritual power, which is juxtaposed with reason and everyday common sense. The opening ritual elevates the Olympian gods, especially their power to reveal the truth and ruin evil. The chorus warns that the murderer will be hunted down and brought to justice by the gods through their oracle. The Chorus’s speech is full of imagery such as lightning and wings, which alludes to darkness and terror coming from the skies.
Fatu, you clearly have a good understanding of the play and the role of Chorus. However, in this forum we are focusing on specific passages that exemplify Aristotle’s criteria of “language enhanced by varying beauties.” We want to explore some of the powerful and poetic passages sung by the Chorus. So students should post quotes from short passages that demonstrate this poetic language.
Hello Fatu. It was nice to read your thoughts. I love that you see the Chorus’ speech is full of imagery. To add to your thoughts on this i’m adding the quote I think you were referring to in the text and my thoughts. 550 “with fire and the lightning bolt, and terribly close on his heels, are the Fates that never miss.” I am taking a theatre class that also is teaching me a lot in conjunction with this class and apparently in Greek mythological views, fire represents the symbolic form of mans beginnings and lightning is often used as a symbolic representation of destiny, or a punishment from the heavens. Both of these symbols are mentioned by the Chorus in this tragic story of Oedipus the King and it makes sense that they would as Oedipus was subject punishment through destiny, hence,…
“Fates that never miss.”
In this passage sung by the Chorus (542-552), they battle with the news they’ve just learned from Oedipus’ conversation with the seer. They start off by wondering who the killer could be and why Teiresias did not want to say his name. They consider that whomever he is, he should be running as fast as he can because fate was starting to catch up to him. When Aristotle speaks of beautiful language, I think this line that says, “…and terribly close on his heels are the Fates that never miss” (551-552), embodies what he was trying to convey because of the imagery that instantly jumps out at you and gets your heart racing while reading it. (564-577) In this stanza, they try to rationalize their growing fears that what the seer has prophesied might be true, sending their heroic view of their beloved king up in flames, but they cannot accept it because it makes no sense. This leaves them in a state of terrible confusion. I think this line where it says, “I am in a flutter of foreboding” (569), once again exemplifies Aristotle’s criteria for great tragic theatre because of the melancholic emotion that it subtly pushes through.
Hi Antonia. What i like about your post is that you quoted the beautiful language Aristotle was speaking of. With this quote, ‘“…and terribly close on his heels are the Fates that never miss” (551-552), ” the close on heels imagery made me think of the fact that Oedipus had his ankles marked by his father Laius symbolically sealing his fate from his birth when he was left on the mountainside. I think the Chorus, symbolizing the citizens of Thebes, already know whats about to go down and thus the quote of, ” I am in flutter of foreboding” (569), which symbolizes those butterflies we sometimes feel in our stomach when we find ourselves in a unsure or sometimes unpleasant situation.
Janine, thank you for posting your line and your meaning of what that line could mean. I understand what Professor thoroughly wanted us to do with our assignment and I do agree that there were certain parts of the chorus that did stand out and make you feel like you were on your toes or present during the confrontation conversations with Oedipus and everyone else.
Hi Antonia, your analysis of the lines by the chorus (542-552) is correct and I think that the killer will find himself in a very unhappy place when he is found and that if someone know who he is why is it hard for them to name him. The language ”and terribly close on his heels are the Fates that never miss” I think it means that they will catch up to this killer because what you get away with one day, you will not get away with forever. I think in the language ”I am in a flutter of foreboding” means that he is has an indication or prediction of something is coming.
Hey Antonia, I definitely agree that they try to rationalize their fears of the image of their king. Just to think that the very man that saved them is the same man that can be sending then to their dooms can always be a scary thought. Oedipus is really smart and can seem to find his way out of troubles but his intelligence may be the reason for his demise.
I agree with you Antonia, about this especially important since the people themselves are the ones that recommend seeking Teiresias wisdom. To have the truth be so shocking and unexpected, the chorus feels so blindsided that they begin to even question the very person that they trust most to bring an accurate word from Apollo. In addition, the disbelief of Oedipus stands out to me as he genuinely believes he is being slandered, not of someone who is purposefully trying to manipulate the narrative
Hello everyone. To be very honest I really didn’t understand Oedipus King but I am trying my best to do this. In line 181 where the Chorus part start it states “What is the sweet spoken word of God from the shrine of Pytho rich in gold a War God ringed with the cries of men, a savage God who burns us;” this line stood out to me because it’s talking about a war God and there’s a ringed with the cries of MEN. I don’t understand when they say “a savage God who burns us” why? And it continues to say line 215 “deny the stranger safe anchorage.” in which I think this means that they want to deny the safe anchorage that they don’t know because it’s strange to them.
Hi Nicole, I think that when they say, “a savage God who burns us,” they’re talking about Ares. In Greek Mythology, Ares is the war god and the god of plagues. In those passages they’re praying to Zeus to help them against Ares, who they believe has unleashed the plague on them. When they said “deny the stranger safe anchorage”, they’re talking about the Thracian sea from the line before. They’re praying for Ares to be expelled far away from their land, they don’t care if he ends up in a palace or the ocean, as long as he’s gone.
Hi Nicole, I understand that this text is very difficult to understand because of the vocabulary that is used in it. I agree with Josh about what “a savage God who burns us” means. I feel that in order to understand more of the story, it helps to read up on greek mythology and knowing certain gods and goddesses. It helped me be able to break down parts of the text, especially in areas that were the most difficult to understand.
In lines 542-593, the dialogue between the townspeople of Thebes displays their confusion after the argument between Oedipus and Teiresias, two people they trust. The passage begins with a very poetic description of fate closing in on the killer, “In the savage forests he lurks and in the caverns like the mountain bull” (557-559), as he’s haunted by the ever-present threat of prophecy. They then admit that Teiresias has confused them with his prophecy, and begin to suspect an ulterior motive for attacking Oedipus. They cast doubt on Teiresias’s prophetic abilities, saying, “Truly Zeus and Apollo are wise and in human things all knowing: but amongst men there is no distinct judgment, between the prophet and me – which of us is right.” (578-583). At this point it doesn’t seem like the people of Thebes have turned against Oedipus, but they are confused by Teiresias’s prophecy as they begin to rationalize its implications.
Josh, thanks for the good post. Yes, the metaphorical language in the passage you mention is quite powerful. We also see in the other section you cite the great conflict that develops in the play as the townspeople grow frightened at the king’s disregard for the words of the gods.
For my understanding the citizens of Thebes were desperate to find a solution that could bring them peace, and finally leave behind old the death and unfortune that they were living. On the passage sung by the Chorus in lines 195-204; “Our sorrows defy number; all the ship’s timbers are rotten; taking of thought is no spear for the driving away of the plague. There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth. You may see them one with another, like birds swift on the wing, quicker than fire unmastered, speeding away to the coast of the Western God. In the unnumbered death of its people the city dies”. I think that they are talking about how sad and powerless they become with an epidemic of not being able to have descendants who can perpetual their city, because all the kids are dying.
Kenia, you have chosen a very powerful section, which, as you write, expresses the suffering and dismay the plague has caused. And yes, this section focuses heavily on the inability of women to have children, or perhaps children are dying in the womb. There is a very poetic metaphor in this passage, which refers to the realmo of death as “the coast of the Western God.”
This is a beautiful piece of analysis! I strongly agree with you that the passage is describing about the deaths of children and women’s inability to give birth to a child. For the last line of the passage where it says, “In the unnumbered death of its people the city dies”, here, I believe that this sentence is trying to demonstrate how with each deaths of children, the future of the city becomes shambolic. Likewise, we can sense the fear, the misery, and how the people are seeking for an equity from this very last line.
Prasika, if you do not respond to comments by name, we cannot follow along in the conversation.
Hi Kenia, I agree that the passage you chose shows how the plague has made the women and fields or land intertile. Moreover, this passage shows how Chorus plays the role of peacemaker and makes readers feel the fear and sadness the citizens of Thebes feel. Also, your analysis helped me understand better that the citizens of Thebes were trying to find a solution to the terrible state of plague and its devastating consequences in the city of Thebes.
Kenia., You are correct that the citizens were desperately in need of a solution that would bring them peace from this plague they were under. The lines you mentioned ( 195 -204 ) Our sorrows defy number; all the ship’s timbers are rotten; I think these lines means that this plague has brought them much sorrow and the plague is more than the number of people they have who can defeat it.
There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth. This means that the women are not have the chance to feel the pain of childbearing hence, they are no children to play in this village.
Kenia, this response was a perfect choice for this assignment. The people of Thebes were going through great suffering and despair. The choice of passage you selected was very poetic showing a lot of seafaring imagery. Trade was very important in ancient greece cities were built in other countries having several routes along the Mediterranean. It was the lifeblood of the Greeks. The poetic use of “our ships timbers are rotten”, points to an interesting metaphor where Thebes is a ship and the foundation of it is rotting away. It may also mean something more literal as the city was plagued with misfortune, trade has been diminished leading to economic hardship. to expand on your passage choice lines 190-191 “who sits in the midst of the market place in the throne with men call Fame”, a call on Athena and Artemis, shows reference of trade and prosperity. “There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth”, which in this text we see that no one can bear children in this city. I also wonder if that in itself could mean that there is no prosperity, where children represent continuing generations and that there is no future for the current state of Thebes.
This passage sung by the Chorus from the beginning of the line, “What is the Sweet spoken word of God from the shrine of Pytho rich in gold..” (line 215) explains the grief of the people in Thebes who are in the hope of a real savior–a spirited role model to protect them. Therefore, the chorus is a prayer that resembles their deprivation by the plague. They believe that the War God, Ares, who they named as “a savage God” happens to ruin their lives and disrupt their city and people. The following line says, “grant that he turn in racing course backwards out of our country’s bounds…where the waves of the Thracian sea..” This particular line speaks of their wants and strong desires of sending the savage God who burns them to death to a place that is oceans apart– where there is no way of returning back. Consequently, we can conclude that this stanza reveals the frustration, agony, and the urgency of the people who desire the banishment of Ares, the war God. On the other hand, towards the end of the paragraph–the line where it says, “beneath your thunderbolt,…the lightning that carries fire” contemplates the fact I believe is that the people believe Father Zeus is powerful than Ares because of how they praise and remind Father Zeus of his power and competence disregarding the fact that their lives could be in danger after going against the War God. What struck my mind after reading this paragraph was this fact that the people were fearless disregarding the power of War God in comparison to that of Father Zeus’s power. I might be wrong in this part of analysis yet I felt like the people were trying to talk to Father Zeus by reminding how powerful he is to turn the War God into ashes (death) with his lightning power that carries fire which can vanquish his existence once and for all.
Prasika I agree with what you have to say about these chorus lines “grant that he turn in racing course backwards out of our country’s bounds…where the waves of the Thracian sea..” that their hope is that Zeus will send the war god somewhere that is oceans apart from them so that they will never have to worry about Ares again because he can no longer reach them where he is. I also agree with what you said about them remanding Zeus about how powerful her was so that he would help them.
Prasika, I just wanted to say that was an amazing explanation, I personally didn’t understand the text that much but your post gives me a bit more insight. The way they express the grief of the people of Thebes is quite complex if you ask me. The whole idea that this section is kind of like a prayer to be honest makes a whole lot of sense. Their desire to have Zeus save em explains a lot
ENG 201(0527)
The reference to Aristotle’s criteria for a great tragedy, “language enhanced by varying beauties” means a poetic expression of feeling emotion. It is a language of pleasing attributes that come together in an element of drama, that isn’t just read but felt. There are many cathartic expressions in Oedipus Rex, one great example was in passage (351-416). Teiresias just gained the wisdom of King Laius’ murderer. The interaction between Oedipus and Teiresias initially became one of great concern, “Yes, but I see that even your own words miss the mark; therefore I must fear mine. For God’s sake if you know of anything, do not turn from us; all of us kneel to you, all of us here, your suppliants”, (Line 361-365). We see Oedipus in grave concern for him and his people wanting to end the troubles in the kingdom pleading to the answers he seeks. Which then Teiresias refuses to give him for fear that what he says dooms himself as Oedipus has with his promises to the people. This exchange of vague riddles infuriates Oedipus. Seeing that Teiresias has the answers that can save the kingdom and please the suppliants. “You would provoke a stone! Tell us, you villain, tell us, and do not stand their quietly unmoved and balking at the issue. You blame my temper but you do not see your own that lives within you; it is me you chide”, (Line 374-379). This is interesting to note because you can see that the refusal to speak the direct truth to Oedipus has angered him so much to the point he pointed the finger at Teiresias labeling him the villain. An exchange of colorful, insulting words and an intense bickering, ultimately leads to an emotional reveal of drama. “I say you are the murderer of the King whose murderer you seek”, (Line 415-416). This eye-opening detail, one could imagine, left the audience gasping at the thought. This reveal leads forth into a very interesting plot where we see the character fall into utter ruin, spiraling to his demise.
Juan I agree with your analysis about Oedipus fearing for him and his people and that he became angry that Teiresias would not tell him what she knows about the situation. Oedipus began to feel like Teiresias was a villain because he felt she knew a piece of information that would be able to help him and his people and she was refusing to tell him. Teiresias and Oedipus then began to point fingers at each other labeling each other as villains. Teiresias then goes on to tell Oedipus that he is blaming her but maybe the cause of his problem is his own anger.
Juan, your comments about the interaction between these characters are well taken. However, the topic for this week’s forum asks participants to focus on the poetic language in passages sung by the Chorus. The lines you have chosen are a dialogue between Oedipus and Teiresias.
The passage sung by the chorus in line 1000-1005, “Insolence breeds the tyrant, insolence if it is glutted with a surfeit, unseasonable, unprofitable, climbs to the rooftop and plunges sheer down to the ruin that must be, and there its feet are no service,” caught my attention the most. This passage refers to Oedipus’ pride being very high and being arrogant. He refuses to believe what Creon, Jocasta and Teiresias is telling him and doesn’t want the truth. Oedipus views himself as the most important person. When the chorus says, “Insolence breeds the tyrant…”, it portrays Oedipus as a tyrant due to his arrogance and pride. The second part of the passage is interesting because it discusses how “insolence” climbs to the roof and ultimately jumps off. This makes me believe that if insolence is “fed” or given something in return, it will decrease its power or get rid of itself in a way.
Sheilaya, I agree that Oedipus’s pride is very high and shows that it is arrogant. Oedipus decided to do everything in his power to find the culprit who killed Laius, but was very negative about what Creon, Jocasta, and Teiresias told him. He thinks that the unbelievable prophecy gradually becomes clear that it was true, but he does not want to believe it. I think Oedipus was arrogant because he was working diligently to resolve the suffering of the people but did not want to admit that the truth was different.
Sheilaya, I agree that Oedipus will not except that he is the killer, Oedipus pride and reputation was on the line because of what he had done so he refuse to hear the accusations that were said to him because this would mean that the prophecy that was told to him from the unknown oracle was becoming true and that his actions unfolded just like the oracle predicted. This also opens the eyes of Oedipus into finding who his real parents where since he ran way from Corinth thinking that would make the prophecy not occur. In the end his unreasonable and stubborn behavior did not help misguide his actions.
The lines I would like to analyze from the chorus are lines 542-553 I like this section because they use a lot of mythological refrences to describe simple actions. The use of Delphi and the Fates to emphasis the scene, almost like a foredhadow to something later in the story. One of the quotes from the play that really striked me is line 633 when Creon says “If you think obstinacy without wisdom a valuable possession, you are wrong.” Essentially Creon is defending himself by being blamed as the murderer, but it also gives the audience a moment of thought of whether Oidepus is being rational or is just blaming everyone else. He was being stubborn and not realizing that the fall and “pollution” of the city could be himself. You also see it in 169-176 he is already talking high about himself and how he will bring justice and honor to his city without realizing the cnsequences.
Noami I love that idea of foreshadowing and i didn’t really think of it like that. i also liked the line you chose. “If you think obstinacy without wisdom a valuable possession, you are wrong.” this was something i overlooked but the way you explained it made me see that Creon made a valid point. Oidepus could have been the reason that the fall of the city could have been him
Mark, Yes, Naomi has cited some powerful lines; however, they are not sung by the Chorus.
Naomi, I agree that the line you quote is a powerful one. However, the prompt for this week’s forum asks you to discuss a passage sung by the Chorus that exemplifies “language of varying beauties.” You are discussing dialogue between Creon and Oedipus. You do mention a passage sung by the Chorus that contains a lot of mythological reference, but you do not share that passage with us.
(Lines 209-224)These lines sung by the chorus speak to me the most because you can feel the emotions of the citizens of Thebes through these lines. You can sense the fear they have when they ask Zeus for help.”a war god ringed with the cries of men, a savage god who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backwards out of our country bound” in this line the citizens are speaking on the war god Ares. When they say the lines “ringed with the cries of men” they are referring to the suffering he has brought upon man, for Ares the suffering he brought upon man are almost accomplishments, he is known for the pain is has inflicted on man and he is proud of this. They refer to Ares as a savage god who burns them I feel like they are referring to how unforgivable or ruthless Ares is. In the next lines they ask Zeus to smite Ares so that he can leave them unharmed and go back the way he came, away from them. The odes then go on to Zeus that they are asking for his help because he is the Lycean King and they beg him to be by there side.”Lycean King I beg to at our side for help” the odes know without Zeus they will be burned by the war god and only the lord of lightening can save them from Ares.
Line 442 “who is the man proclaimed by Delphi’s prophetic rock as the bloody handed murderer, the doer of deeds that none dare name?” This chorus sang after Oedipus the king has declared his decision to find the murderer of Laius. The chorus has already found the massage from Delphi resulting the uncertainty about who the murder might be. Line 553 “Lately from snowy Parnassus clearly the voice flashed forth, bidding each Theban track him down, the unknown murderer” In this chorus, it introduce the allegation of him the King being the murderer.
Line 587 “For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us saw his wisdom and in that test he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind.” This comes when Oedipus is finding crisis of his identity. This chorus tells that Oedipus might got some divine spirit to connect with god.
I am going to be completely honest and own up to the fact that I don’t really understand the reading. At least I don’t understand it in the way its supposed to be understood, read it a couple of times and still can’t get a complete 360 on what’s going on. One piece of what the chorus says that catches my attention and eye has to be from lines 471 to line 474. Those particular lines state “CHORUS: We look at this man’s words and yours, my king, and we find both have spoken them in anger. We need no angry words but only thought how we may best hit the God’s meaning for us”. I believe this comment came about because of Teiresias and Oedipus’ conversation in which if I ever so slightly understood it, Oedipus was accusing Teiresias of killing someone, they eventually getting into a heated conversation about Oedipus’ kingship. When those words were made by Chorus I believe they were addressing the tension in the room and the anger being sent back and forth between Teiresias and Oedipus. I believe this was beautiful language in part because of the ending, in how it states the anger is unnecessary and to focus on the meaning God has for them.
Kadeem, your discussion of this quote suggests that you actually do understand the reading. What do you mean that you don’t think you understand it “in the way it’s supposed to be understood?”
Hi Kadeen, I agree with your statement about the passage sung by the Chorus that you choose. I think that the citizens of Thebes at that moment were somehow trying to calm or reduce the tension between Oedipus and Teiresias arguments, because the Chorus knew that arguing wasn’t a good way of a solution for their main problem. In this case to know what was the meaning of their God message, in order for them to know exactly how to eradicate the plague from their city.
The lines 578 through 591 “Antistrophe.”
It is clear that throughout this message, the citizens are reminded of who Oedipus was and how he came to their rescue. That first impression of him saving the city by solving the Sphinx riddle that no other man could is his worthiness. The chorus says the following “one man may pass another in wisdom, but I would never agree with those that find fault with the king till I should see the word proved right beyond doubt.” This conveys that they don’t doubt that the prophet does not have any validity to it, but for anyone who was to think so foully of the king in that manner will not be tolerated. Furthermore, they express the reason for their support of the king through his single upbringing, which is a key factor in the people’s opinions. It seems as though Oedipus only has the destruction of the Sphinx to support him.
– I love this play. I am tempted to finish reading it now!!!!!
“Pride breeds the tyrant violent pride, gorging, crammed to bursting with all that is overripe and rich with ruin—clawing up to the heights, headlong pride crashes down the abyss—sheer doom!”
– Chorus (Section 4: Lines 963-967) When I read this line it makes me think of some of the people I know. Instead of taking a step back and analyzing the whole picture, they let their dignity get in the way. Which like Oedipus is their biggest downfall that destroys them. I think this is a great story that everyone should read because I love mythology but mostly because the mural of the story, “It is useless to try to escape the power of fate”, is relatable to everyone’s life.
Heaven, your comment made me smile—the part about how the passage reminds you of some people you know. Your remarks highlight beautifully the timelessness of this play with its insight into the unchanging nature of human beings.
Heaven,
I think this is a very insightful post. The dignity of man has long been a topic of being too proud. People are willing to let the own self image obstruct their view of the world and its distorts them in turn. They view the world from a pedestal they erected for themselves and fight tooth and nail not to be touch from where they are perch. This is a great example of how Oedipus killed his own father to inflate himself and rise further than he had already placed himself.
The Odes song was certainly not an easy task to figure out how to read, but nevertheless is sung with beautiful language which creates a powerful effect on the readers. From lines 195-210 the Chorus really amplified the toll the city has taken. In fact when they say “our sorrows defy numbers” this signalizes that they are very unhappy. In addition to this the chorus then expresses that ” In the unnumbered death of its people the city dies” which means that matters have gotten so bad they even lost count of the death toll. Their usage of language allows us, as the readers, to feel their pain and call of urgency to the matter.
Hi Ivanoba, I agree with you. In this play, the chorus chanting always revolves around the dilemma faced by Oedipus, which brings the sad atmosphere to the readers and strengthens the appeal of the dramatic scene. We see in the ode of lines 195 to 210 all the terrible things that have happened in Thebe, which makes it easier for us to get into the mood to feel the sadness, and it makes it easier for us to relate to it.
(470-476) These lines stood out to me. “We look at this man’s words and yours, my king, and we find both have spoken them in anger. We need no angry words but only thought how we may best hit the God’s meaning for us”. As I was reading this I didn’t really think much but as I read it a second time I realized the significance of this line. Words hold more weight then what it really seems and it made me think about Oedipus and how he became something from nothing into something although he does come off as arrogant. When these words were said I believe it was due to the environment of the room. The anger that was mentioned had to do with a discussion and bringing up god and realizing the meaning it was well said. That Is why I believe those lines meant to me.
Mark, these are powerful words, but are they the best examples of poetic language sung by the Chorus? There are so many passages rich in imagery and metaphor.
In this part, when the chorus in lines [1000-1005], “Insolence breeds the tyrant, insolence if it is glutted with a surfeit, unseasonable, unprofitable, climbs to the rooftop and plunges sheer down to the ruin that must be, and there its feet are no service,” caught my attention the most. This passage is talking about Oedipus’s pride being very high and being arrogant. He refuses to believe what Creon, Jocasta, and Teiresias are telling him and doesn’t want the truth. The other part that got my attention was extremely close on his heels are the Fates that never miss” lines [551-552], ” the close on heels imagery made me think of the fact that Oedipus had his ankles marked by his father Laius symbolically sealing his fate from his birth when he was left on the mountainside. The third part that made me want to read more was when the people are doubt on Teiresias’s prophetic Oedipus in lines [578- 583] “Truly Zeus and Apollo are wise and inhuman things all-knowing: but amongst men, there is no distinct judgment, between the prophet and me – which of us is right.” people aren’t going to turn against Oedipus but are confused.
(Lines 204-210) “In the unnumbered death of its people the city dies; those children that are born lie dead on the naked earth unpitied, spreading contagion of death; and gray-haired mothers and wives everywhere stand at the altar’s edge, suppliant, moaning; the hymn to the healing God rings out but with it the wailing voices are blended. From these our sufferings grant us, O golden Daughter of Zeus, glad-faced deliverance.” In this passage, there is a continuous sense of the people’s sickness, fear and suffering from the plague. These lines show how the citizens of Thebes feel bad and depressed. I think that this passage is about how children die and women do not give birth and ask for help from God because they won’t have a future without a new generation. The city now looks like a “city of death”, which is filled with crying, sadness and prayers to the daughter of God, who the people see as a healer who can come to the rescue and help in their time of need.
Altynai, this is an excellent example of the poetic language so valued by Aristotle in his assessment of Greek tragedies.
In this part we can see that Oedipus is a good man, but not a perfect one. He commits a crime through unintentional negligence and falls into disaster. The contrast between his noble character and his tragic fate is pitiful. The chanting of the chorus always revolves around the dilemma faced by the protagonist Oedipus, highlighting the tragic atmosphere and strengthening the appeal of the dramatic scene.Through the ode “Our sorrows defy number; all the ship’s timbers are rotten…speeding away to the coast of the Western God. ”(195-203)and“In the unnumbered death of its people the city dies…O golden Daughter of Zeus, glad-faced deliverance.”(203-210).”, the grimness and horror of the calamity of Thebe is exposed in the chorus chanting, and the horror and injustice of regicide is also reinforced in the chorus chanting.
“His words are wise, king, if one fears to fall. Those who are quick of temper are not safe.“ [715-721]
I think Oedipus was someone who acted on his emotions which would later cause him great tragedy. An example was when Oedipus unknowingly killed the man who was his father out of his uncontrollable rage. Oedipus was sometimes paranoid and accused people around him of plotting against him; in which he made it very clear that he would retaliate. Oedipus says: “When he that plots against me secretly moves quickly, I must quickly counterplot.” Oedipus feared that if he let anything by him it would ruin him. And his arrogance is reflected as he tries to defy the prophecy. However, we can observe that what was the true downfall of Oedipus was his own actions. While he attempts to escape the fate the gods have laid out for him, his personality flaws such as his arrogance, rage, and paranoia get him into trouble on many occasions and inevitably he finds out he did fulfil his tragic prophecy that he tried so hard to outrun. Oedipus was a complex protagonist: he had many good qualities which would make him admirable, it seemed he was doomed from the very beginning which is a pity but this makes for a thrilling story.
I forgot to mention; I think this quote is meant to be a caution to Oedipus, that he must not let his emotions get in the way, and he shouldn’t take actions derived from his emotions.
Hi Migena yes you are absolutely right about how Oedipus had a true downfall but to expand I noticed how much his character or personality grew into arrogance. Also we can observe how the theme is being conveyed that one cannot defy the gods without suffering severe consequences. Since Oedipus, the king of Thebes, who inadvertently kills his father and ends up marrying his mother. Even when the truth is revealed to them, he remains in denial. And from there on his downfall started.
Jasmin, this was posted on Monday of Week 6.
In Oedipus the King the Chorus has many passages throughout the play and amplified lots of beautiful language. But one shorter passage that really stood out to me were from lines 557 to 563.
“In the savage forests he lurks and in
the caverns like
the mountain bull
He is sad and lonely, his feet that carry him far from the navel of earth; but its prophecies, ever living,
flutter around his head.”
Although this short passage seems quite dim the language itself and the use of the simile makes envisioning and really being able to understand the character much easier. This passage is giving a very precise description of his characteristics the lurking and seemingly very ominous on the outside and on the inside sad and lonely. The troubles of life really taking a tole on him for example travels and the constant thoughts going through his head are really weighing him down.
Neil, I agree that this was weighing him down and he made sure to avoid the details of this prophecy by leaving his adopted family behind to make sure that nothing bad happens to them or that one day he could hurt them. This part from the chorus “He is lonely, his feet carry him far from the navel of earth; but its prophecies ever living flutter around his head.” Also indicates that although he ran, hid and do what he believes is correct to avoid this tragedy the prophecy is “ever living, flutter around his head”. This lead to Oedipus fall into denial and confusion as he slowly discovers he already had fulfilled his tragic destiny.
The passage sung by the chorus ( 545-560), they are shocked by what they heard from Oedipus. They are wondering who is the killer and why no one wants to name him, ”who is the man proclaimed by Delphi’s prophetic rock as the bloody handed murderer, the doer of deeds that none dare name”. Whoever this killer is he needs to start running far away because hell will rain down on him when when they catch him. The beautiful language in lines (550) means that Zeus himself will use his strength to destroy the killer. In the lines (580-590), they are saying that no man ever thinks they are wrong and that unless he sees the king as being wrong, he will never agree with others because the King saved the village from the Sphinx. The beautiful language in lines ( 582) suggests that even though others might have more wisdom than Antistrophe, he will never say it is so. I think this language is so true in reality as some people cannot accept one being smarter then them or unless they see something for themselves they don’t believe others.
In lines 1251-1260 the chorus wonders who Oedipus the kings was child of, the passage showed the chorus describing Oedipus being the son of various mythical creatures such as nymphs which were beautiful creatures that were found only in particular places. The passage also was describing Oedipus as the son of kings and Bacchaants gods that live on top of hills, This was done to portray the king Oedipus as the son of someone who is of true beauty or the son of someone that was very important. This was in deed true because Oedipus was the son of the king and queen of Thebes who was sent away and then raised by another royal family who were the king and queen of Corinth which was the place Oedipus was raised before he went back to Thebes to seal his fate.
Chorus:
“Who was it bore you, child? One of
the long-lived nymphs63 who lay with Pan64—
the father who treads the hills?
Or was she a bride of Loxias, your mother? The
grassy slopes
1255 are all of them dear to him. Or perhaps Cyllene’s
king65
or the Bacchaants’ God that lives on the tops
of the hills received you a gift from some
one of the Helicon Nymphs, with whom he mostly
plays?”
I’ll be discussing my analyzation of lines 542-592. As the Chorus speaks I can see that they are mapping out the mystery of the dead king following the exchange of words between Oedipus and Teiresias. The first few lines of the chorus’ words state, “who is the man proclaimed by Delphi’s prophetic rock as the bloody handed murderer, 545 the doer of deeds that none dare name? Now is the time for him to run with a stronger foot than Pegasus…”. To me, just as the chorus had done in the beginning, they are asking the gods to give them a sign of this man who none dare to name. Connecting it back to the real world and movies, specifically Disney and Greek mythology, Pegasus is a powerful being and Zeus strikes down lightening and from this phrase I believe they’re telling this unknown murderer to run faster than Pegasus as the god Zeus will strike him down with the most awful of things he can. Another interesting thing I would like to point out are lines 583-592, they talk about Oedipus and how smart he is. His intelligence helped the people of the town get rid of the Sphinx and the last line of the phrase states, “For once in visible form the Sphinx came on him and all of us 590 saw his wisdom and in that test he saved the city. So he will not be condemned by my mind”. It is evident to me that when Antistrophe states this, they’re implying that the king can do no wrong. No matter if somethings can be strange, because he saved the town and showed how intelligent he is, he may never do no wrong in the minds of his people.
I loved a few passages from this ode that i would love to talk about, i love Greek mythology and found this play in general very interesting and brought back memories of certain things i already knew about Greek mythology. I first would like to analyze the passages starting from lines 195-210 these 2 short passages of the ode show the catastrophe of the plague that has ravaged the people and the city that was once so protected by the gods, this passage also shows how the people are tired of their suffering and try to regain the protection of the gods again but their voices aren’t being heard. Lines 211-230 also show the people. Calling upon all the gods to help them fight off the ravaging of their city by the savage war god ares, they know that the war god isn’t accepted by the other gods as well therefore they see a common emery and want the gods to help smite the plague that the war god has ravaged on their city.
In the chorus, we can know that the citizens of Thebes are currently immersed in sadness and fear, and they are eager to find a solution to survive this plague. On the passage sung by the Chorus in lines 195-199; “Our sorrows defy number; all the ship’s timbers are rotten; taking of thought is no spear for the driving away of the plague. There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth.” I think what they mean is that this plague has killed a lot of children and old people. In the case of death and grief, women and young people only want to solve this problem urgently, the problems caused by the plague, so that they can continue their offspring.
(Lines 181-188) A back and forth of a patrons of the alter who pray and beg for the help and wisdom of the “Delian God” or Apollo. The ode opens with Strophe asking what good the “spoken word of god from the shrine of Pytho rich in gold” has. The chorus here is saying that the words that the gods have said to the people who worship from a shrine filled with gold have no bearing on the poor and suffering. I believe this has a lot of meaning today as the disparity between the rich and the poor is not unlike it was in ancient Thebes it seems. The ode speaks of these common people worried of war and plague, one that affects them now and one they fear is soon to come brought by Oedipus. This is all foreshadowing for the coming events that are brought upon by Oedipus’s deceptions. The common people fear sickness and see that Oedipus is an omen of bad fortune for soon after he arrived the king died. “I Worship full of fears for what doom you will bring to pass”.
The chorus says, “The city dies with countless deaths of the people. Born children are lethargic and lie dead on a bare earth, spreading the infection of death. And gray-haired mothers and wives are everywhere standing on the edge of the altar. , lithe and moaning. A hymn to the god of healing echoes, along with a mixture of mourning voices. From these sufferings, Zeus’s golden daughter, willingly be rescued. “(Line 203-210) In this part, many people in the city have died, no one can help the citizens, and the criminal who killed Laius cannot found, so there is nothing to do. So the Elder of Thebes wants to save by god from this suffering. Chorus seems to be hoping for help from Athena, the god of wisdom.
Rii, thank you for this follow-up!
The lines that stood out to me were in the beginning which starts Oedipus and the Priest, Lines 15 to 45 Oedipus asks the priests why they have come. He knows that the city is sick with plague. He tells them they can trust him to help in any way he can. In a moving speech, a priest tells Oedipus the city’s woes: the crops are ruined, cattle are sick, women die in labor and children are stillborn, and people are perishing from the plague. The priest begs Oedipus to save Thebes, just as Oedipus once saved it from the Sphinx. “You came and by your coming saved our city and freed us from the tribute which we paid of old to the Sphinx.