For Alok this means being more then what you may label yourself, more then your preferred sex pronoun and or gender construction. I can agree that We all express and experience our gender in different ways that is what makes us unique. I disagree with Alok saying that there are an infinite number of options outside of either being man or woman. I would have liked to have heard some of those options. I do love Alok’s enthusiasm and charisma about a subject that is near and dear to his or her heart. This goes back to what I previously discussed in my last post where so many people for many reasons want to feel oppressed or have fake outrage and or want to be placed in groups separate from everyone else. Which I understand totally understand but i should not have to take part in what someone’s theoretic belief to make them feel better. My passion is art i am an artist i paint draw, sketch, graffiti etc. My style of drawing and creating figures that i would imagine had no real structure to it , that is until i started fashion design class. The class taught me how to proportion my figures also how to express emotion with body language. I guess that is one way my gender identity goes against binary norms It was a class of 20 students with 2 other students being men . In one way i suppose it “fits the binary norm” is that i love to portray the woman i paint as very goddess like a technique that has been seen for centuries by the masterclass painters that have been men, not saying there were not any woman masterclass painters i am sure if we look we will find some. My question is why does what i like have go against a binary norm? that actually ridiculous even to type. As a man i watched sailor moon as equally as dragon ball z. The discussion seems less about making people aware and more forcing people to care. Your sexual orientation should be personal and how you choose to live your life in whatever power ranger you identify with is your choice and that is my ted talk.
4 thoughts on “Antione Malave discussion 3”
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Hi Antoine, What I find confusing is how contradictory many of your arguments seem to be. Firstly in disagreeing that there is an infinite number of options outside of the binary of man and woman and wanting to hear what those options would be — I believe that option would be adhering to just the categories of man and woman which I think we are all already very familiar with. Secondly I think you feeling that people “want to feel oppressed or have fake outrage” comes from a misunderstanding of what oppression is and the many forms it can take, and that to say they desire to “be placed in groups separate from everyone else” completely misses the point that Alok is trying to make. They are not trying to exist in a place that is separate from everyone, they are actually trying to exist in a place that is more inclusive of everyone. They also spell out the way in which these marginalized groups are legitimately oppressed in legislation and employment, and have significantly higher rates of suicide. Trust me that I, growing up as a gay adolescent ridiculed from the ways in which I didn’t conform, did not want to feel less than. I did not want to question my worth against society’s mandates and whether my life was worth living. You say that you should not have to take part in this to make someone feel better without recognizing that your willful ignorance is actively doing harm. In your discussion 2 post you said that you only car about whether someone is a good person, so I ask if not caring about how the way you engage with someone makes them feel, does that make you a good person? You aren’t even offering the bare minimum of respect by choosing to not use Alok’s preferred pronouns after reading that entire text. I actually question whether you did read it, because it very clearly counters your arguments.
You even seem to illustrate your point while going against it. No, what you like does not HAVE to go against a binary norm, but the fact is that it does. And yes it is ridiculous that gender norms are assigned to Sailor Moon, or Dragon Ball Z, or what color Power Ranger you prefer. That’s the point, categorizing these things is ridiculous. I think it may also be helpful for you look back at how women were historically restricted from participating in the classical arts of drawing, painting, and sculpture, and the misogyny of the resulting male gaze before you take too much pride in conforming to that gender norm.
Ahh my good friend Neil, and its Antione by the way not Antoine!!!… you addressed me in a manner i am not comfortable or familiar with and now i am outraged, not only am i outraged i am also appalled. Do you see ridiculous just that was, yes I’m exaggerating but things like that are happening as we speak where does it end. Respect is earned first and foremost and your definition of respect is me adhering to what you refer to yourself as then i don’t care to. You just spelled my name wrong which is not a big deal it happens all the time but by your own words you just disrespected me , your willful ignorance just shattered my world. This is the type of fake outrage that has everyone walking on eggshells for no reason. It is not inclusive of everyone in the world its inclusive for everyone who wants to exist in there world. I can not know you but hold the door open for you. What may i ask are the gender norms regarding sailor moon and anime made by a woman for girls? are you really looking at cartoons to solve social issues.? you obviously are not familiar with the the love triangle between sailor moon , Ail and tuxedo mask. Why must you turn all of my metaphors into novelty items about slavery especially when you don’t what your talking about and have no proof. I am sure you will google yourself crazy after i send this but Elisabeth Louise VI gee le Brun (French artist 1755), Frida Kahlo Mexican woman 1907, Lavinia Fontana (1522-italy). All woman artists your welcome
Hi Antione, my apologies, I am aware of how to spell your name as you can see from my previous Discussion 2 reply, that was the fault of my autocorrect. Funnily enough, I would understand how you might be offended if I were to willfully refuse you the dignity of calling you by your name.
Again, I think you are arguing against the point you are trying to make. You say Sailor Moon is for girls? Why is it for girls? Clearly you enjoy it, so both men and women can enjoy it, but by your own admission it is a show that is categorized as being for girls. Why is this categorization necessary? I am not looking to cartoons to solve social issues, but I believe that in this class we are being asked to examine the ways in which society reinforces these definitions of gender and what the effects of that are.
And yes, I am aware that female artists have existed, but for a long time they were exceptions because there were very real obstacles barring women from pursuing an education or career in the arts. If those female artists did exist, they were not given the recognition of their male counterparts. I refer you to Linda Nochlin’s essay “Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists?” highlighting the barriers that female artists have faced. You are stating your adherence to a gender norm that is based upon male domination. For centuries there was nearly exclusively an idealized male depiction of women in art. Women were not given the opportunity to depict themselves, and thus men shaped society’s ideas of what a woman was or should be for centuries. This, yet again, is a form of oppression.
No one, including Alok and me, ever suggested “what [you] like have go against a binary norm?” What is we are saying is that many people DO not fit into a binary norm. Most of us have feminine qualities and masculine qualities. Sometimes those don’t line up with the sex people were assigned at birth. What is being suggested, and asked of you is to make room for those people who DO go against the binary norm. Because it is culturally and socially constructed and also a colonial construct. Those in power allowed for ONE story – the binary story – and that’s what we have all been taught. However, there are lots of other stories. They were just silenced to the point that they appear not to exist. Thus people believe the binary is real and “the way it has always been.” It’s not, it’s one story.